EPISODE 368: Identity Tied to Achievement: Redefining Leadership with Michelle Sutter

00:00:01:02 - 00:00:33:00
Lisa
The very patterns that create success can quietly undermine your ability to experience it. Welcome to congruent. I'm Lisa Carpenter because at some point, success becomes about more than what you've built. It becomes about whether your life feels the way you thought it would. Each week I sit down with founders, executives, entrepreneurs, thought leaders and high capacity professionals to explore success, leadership, fulfillment and the experiences that shape them.

00:00:33:02 - 00:00:59:09
Lisa
Together, we examine how our definitions of success involve why accomplishment doesn't always create the life we expected. And what happens when we stop assuming our ways of thinking, leading and achieving are simply part of who we are. Because the question isn't whether you've achieved success, it's whether your success feels the way you thought it would.

00:00:59:12 - 00:01:38:19
Lisa
Welcome back to congruent. Today I am talking with an incredibly impressive woman, Michelle Sutter, CEO of One Girl Can, founder of the Opening Doors Foundation and an executive coach with more than two decades of global leadership experience spanning corporate, nonprofit, and high growth organizations. And Michelle's story has such a cool and wild arc, and it all started way back in the day with a walk along the seawall with a girlfriend that helped her choose a job on a cruise ship over the safer one she'd already lined up because it ultimately meant traveling the world with people her own age instead of staying put.

00:01:38:22 - 00:02:05:15
Lisa
Now that decision turned into more than two decades of shipboard and corporate leadership, with Royal Caribbean, Celebrity Cruises, Fathom and Holland America Line. And most of it came without any real training or a mentor to show her the way. She stepped into leading large teams through some genuinely complex, fast paced, high performance environments and building the kind of cultures and leaders that actually last.

00:02:05:18 - 00:02:32:26
Lisa
Now, eventually, the pull towards being of service got too strong for her to ignore, and she left that career to become an executive coach. Now, along with that, she's also leading in a completely different way as CEO of One Girl Can, driving the organization's next phase of growth and expanding access to education, mentorship and leadership development for girls from under underserved communities in Kenya.

00:02:32:29 - 00:03:03:09
Lisa
It's genuinely one of the most impressive and interesting journeys I've gotten to listen to on this podcast. And what ties our conversation together is this mission she's carried the whole way through her career to open doors of opportunity so other people can step in to their full potential. That's what we get into today, what her career and life arc taught her about growth and change, and about redefining not just what success means to her, but also what leadership means.

00:03:03:11 - 00:03:23:04
Lisa
We talk about what she's had to learn the hard way and what she's still working through even now, which is so real for all of us, and how her whole definition of success has shifted along the way. I love this conversation. I can't wait for you to join in and listen. So let's dive in.

00:03:23:07 - 00:03:51:29
Lisa
Michelle, I'm really happy to have you here. You have had such an interesting career because you've moved through so many different versions of success. You've traveled the world. You've worked inside some massive organizations, led big teams, moved into coaching and culture work, and now you're leading one girl can. What I'm really interested in is how you've changed through all of these seasons, because I think at some point success starts asking different questions of us.

00:03:52:00 - 00:04:19:21
Lisa
It no longer just asks, what can I build? What can I achieve? How far can I go? And it becomes what actually matters to me now and what do I want? Everything I've learned to be of service to. So I have recently sponsored a girl through one girl, cam, which is very exciting. And, it's made me even more curious about your journey into this work and what you've learned from being so close to these young women in their story.

00:04:19:22 - 00:04:30:10
Lisa
So I want to go all the way back, though, and I'd love to hear how your career started and how you define success in your early years.

00:04:30:13 - 00:04:54:28
Michelle
Well, going all the way back. I actually started, when I graduated from university, I had a job lined up to go work in a boarding school in Switzerland, and I was two weeks from leaving and I was called in for an interview for a job that I had, applied for. I'm going to date myself here with, you know, in the classifieds, in the newspaper.

00:04:54:28 - 00:05:19:06
Michelle
And all it said was, do you speak languages and love to travel? So I applied and was then offered this role to go work on cruise ships traveling the world. And, I did a walk around the sea with a girlfriend, and I was torn because I had committed to going to work in this boarding school in Switzerland, and I had been just offered this job.

00:05:19:06 - 00:05:50:15
Michelle
And she said to me, what would you rather do, Michelle? Travel the world with people your own age or look after kids in a school? Oh, here in the cold. So, needless to say, I took the job and it was the best decision of my life because it literally opened the doors of the world to me. I was working with people from 65 different countries, and working with people in that environment isn't just working with people.

00:05:50:17 - 00:06:24:18
Michelle
You're living with these people. These are your friends. These are your colleagues. These are your, the people that you explore the world with and people from all different socioeconomic levels, different cultures. And so I learned so much about people and cultures and the world, all while traveling the world, which really was when I decided the travel was going to be part of my life long term, because I just got so much fulfillment and joy from travel.

00:06:24:21 - 00:07:05:23
Michelle
And, so that's where it started. And really leadership and success was something that for me, when I worked on ships, that was where I had what I would consider like an opposing point of view on that. Back in the 90s, working on ships leadership was far more directive. And it's like you follow the rules or, and there were some incidents where I felt there were injustices that were taking place.

00:07:05:26 - 00:07:40:03
Michelle
And so I would speak up and get reprimanded or disciplined. And I just felt very strongly about, you know, right and wrong. And I wasn't always seeing leaders that were leading. And that's where I started to formulate, a perspective of what great leadership could look like because there were great leaders. And so the contrast between a great leader and a not so great leader was very apparent in that environment.

00:07:40:05 - 00:08:03:10
Michelle
So I ended up transitioning from working on ships to shoreside and started a career in sales. And just a little bit of a backtrack there is that I was the onboard translator when I worked on ships, and at some point during that time that came to me and said, you're going to now do onboard sales. And I was like, no, I'm not.

00:08:03:12 - 00:08:33:04
Michelle
I don't I'm not a sales person. I don't want to sell. And they forced me to do it, and I ended up being their top salesperson. And the reason why I share this was because I never and I still throughout my 20 year career that followed that in sales, I never was selling. What I was doing was sharing a story about what I loved about said destination or what there was to see in, you know, the in the Mediterranean, whatever the case may be.

00:08:33:06 - 00:09:07:04
Michelle
And people could connect with my stories. And so that's what made me successful in sales, which ended up translating into a successful career, shoreside leading sales teams for various, different cruise lines. But it came to the point where I had thought about, you know, what a personal passion of mine which was being in service of others in a meaningful way, that really had me start thinking about how am I making a difference and how am I making an impact.

00:09:07:04 - 00:09:35:28
Michelle
And, I ended up jumping ship and, leaving my career in sales to actually becoming an executive coach in the sports industry. And so that was a big pivot. But I thought it was an important pivot because success leading up to that, to me, was related to your title and your comp plan and how many people you have on the team.

00:09:36:01 - 00:10:01:01
Michelle
And and really it evolved into more of how am I making an impact on people, how am I helping people unlock their potential and become the best version of themselves? And that's where I saw it in coaching. And so I went and did that for three years. And, well, I don't know how far you want me to get into the story of how I ended up, but one girl can.

00:10:01:01 - 00:10:01:21
Michelle
But.

00:10:01:23 - 00:10:03:17
Lisa
You know, we'll get we'll get there.

00:10:03:20 - 00:10:08:00
Michelle
That that's where I, that's where I, that's how I got there. That's that.

00:10:08:06 - 00:10:36:16
Lisa
That's great. I love that because I think that so many people define success by, you know, the letters after their name or the people on their team or the accomplishments, you know, the certificates hanging on the wall. And I think it's it it I don't think I know it, it shifts significantly for us as we move through our careers, and we start to recognize that that definition of definition of success isn't really serving what we truly want to feel, how we want to be in the world.

00:10:36:18 - 00:10:50:27
Lisa
So I love that that you're sharing that that's where you started out from and how that shifted for you. There's so many questions I have. So you talked about great leaders and not so great leaders, and I know that you had to learn kind of leaders. You got thrown into.

00:10:50:27 - 00:10:51:11
Michelle
The.

00:10:51:11 - 00:11:10:04
Lisa
The pot, so to speak, and said, here's, here's your team go lead without a lot of leadership experience. So I would love to hear from you how you define like how what you would pick out as this isn't great leadership. So you talked a little bit about being directive versus what actually makes a great leader.

00:11:10:06 - 00:11:43:12
Michelle
Well, I think I should also clarify that we can learn as much from a not great leader as we get from a great leader. In my first leadership position, I had no training and I had no guidance. I didn't have a mentor, and I hadn't really had a lot of strong leaders, role models. And so I really defined my leadership approach based on just not being like the leaders that had shared a bad example.

00:11:43:15 - 00:12:16:01
Michelle
Right. And so that's how I initially defined it. But what I define as a great leader is someone who a values culture, the foundation of any great organization is having a strong culture and a strong culture. I would define by a place where people feel valued, where they feel seen, where they feel heard, and where they can be themselves and bring their whole selves to work.

00:12:16:03 - 00:12:55:17
Michelle
And where failure is a learning opportunity and not a disciplinary opportunity. Right where you are stretched to learn and grow versus you're just there checking through the list. Right. I think a great leader also sees potential in individuals and gives them opportunities to shine. So whether that's with the stretch project or letting them have a seat at the table where you might normally have the seat at the table, put talking about them when they're not in the room.

00:12:55:19 - 00:13:20:12
Michelle
And giving them a great, great leader is one who will actually give you opportunities, even if it means losing you, right? There were a few times where I had, you know, some really strong, players on my team where I knew they were better served in an opportunity that would consider be considered a loss for our team. But it was what was best for them.

00:13:20:12 - 00:13:24:29
Michelle
So that those are some of the things that I think define really love that.

00:13:25:02 - 00:13:31:27
Lisa
So what did you have to stop doing within yourself so that you could become a great leader?

00:13:31:29 - 00:13:45:10
Michelle
Oh, well, transitioning from being an individual contributor to a leader, I think one of the biggest challenges, and I see this a lot in my coaching, is not doing everything yourself. Yeah, I was curious if that.

00:13:45:10 - 00:14:08:20
Lisa
Was part of it for you, because I know often when we step into roles that we're being kind of thrust into and the opportunity is there and we're tapping into our own potential, we can get into taking on all the things almost as a way to prove that we're capable. We can do this. Yes, I, I was really interested in what parts of you you had to leave behind in order to step into that leadership.

00:14:08:23 - 00:14:39:02
Michelle
So yes, the stop doing everything myself. Not jumping in when people are struggling and doing it for them. Right. Even though it takes longer to coach and walk them through something. Start thinking about the big picture versus, you know, when you come from an individual contributor role, you're thinking about how does this affect me? And as a leader or a great leader, you need to think about the big picture.

00:14:39:02 - 00:15:02:15
Michelle
You need to think about the impact it has on everyone. You have to think about the longer term. But most importantly, I would say, and I believe that people who have been on my teams would say to you is that is start really thinking about how am I going to foster culture of care where people feel valued, heard, seen, and can do their best work.

00:15:02:17 - 00:15:18:10
Lisa
Know what do you think is the thing that still gets in the way of you leading at an even higher level? Is there anything that still gets in your way?

00:15:18:13 - 00:15:46:12
Michelle
Well, I'm in a very different position right now because with one girl can and leading a much smaller team and our team members are straight out of university, where one girl, ten graduates. So I'm going back to like almost where I started in my leadership journey relative to the coaching and what have you. But, what gets in my way, I would say.

00:15:46:15 - 00:15:50:06
Michelle
Impatience. Sometimes I can be impatient.

00:15:50:08 - 00:16:26:29
Lisa
I just find it so fascinating because, you know, you're in the coaching space as well. And for everything we seem to discover and create awareness around ourself. And, you know, we clear cleared out of our way. There seems to be always something else that is unexpected that pops up or it shows up again in a different way. And I think every time we step into this new way of leading, whether it's, you know, we switch organizations or we start our own business or you're with one girl can now it does ask for something different of us, and then we get to start our own journey again around exploring.

00:16:26:29 - 00:16:49:17
Lisa
Well, now what what is the thing that is holding me back? And I could see why impatience would be there? Because you've got so many decades of years under under your belt now. Like, why can't why can't you guys just all which can then trigger the part of you that wants to just get in there and do it yourself instead of stepping back and letting these beautiful women, find their way.

00:16:49:20 - 00:17:24:07
Michelle
Yeah. Impatience can pop up in so many different places right. Impatience with a process. Impatience with a timeline. I like to get things done. And I've always, prided myself in being like someone who can order and outwork, any. I shouldn't say anyone, because early in my career, boss said that to me. He said no one can outwork me.

00:17:24:07 - 00:17:55:06
Michelle
Well, then I had it on a mission to prove that I could outwork on which I did. But so I. I'll never say that no one can outwork me. But what I will say is that, I can get a lot done, and so I can get impatient when things just don't move quickly enough. And not necessarily with people, but with processes and with systems and just how, how we are all impacted by different market conditions, etc..

00:17:55:06 - 00:17:58:11
Michelle
So, yes, impatience is an Achilles heel for sure.

00:17:58:11 - 00:18:17:28
Lisa
Right before we started recording, you talked about how you were taking some space and time to kind of live differently, and that really reflects this. I know for me, I had quite a journey, of learning to slow down, be more present in my life. And that part of me that would get into proving, like, you tell me I can't do something.

00:18:17:28 - 00:18:37:12
Lisa
Let me. Let me show you. Let me show you that I can right. That prove. Or part of me would come out, and wanting to do things quickly, but also learning that there's always something to do. And if I'm always moving quickly, what am I actually missing in my life? What are the what are the other important things that I might not be seeing?

00:18:37:12 - 00:19:13:29
Lisa
So it's it's been this interesting dance between the different parts of me that want different things and learning which parts to honor and which seasons and which ones are actually getting in the way of me having greater fulfillment in my life. And, you know, we kind of live in this Amazon Prime world now where everything is like fast, fast, fast paced and, letting myself be in this space now where it's not really about how quickly can I get it done, it's how much can I enjoy the process of doing it versus just trying to get there, to get to the end.

00:19:13:29 - 00:19:33:25
Lisa
So I always find it so fascinating hearing other high achievers journeys and other leaders journeys and kind of taming some of these beasts that we have inside of us, because they ultimately are the things that created the success that you have today. Right? These parts of you that like, I want to learn more and I'll show you and let me outwork you.

00:19:33:25 - 00:19:52:20
Lisa
And we always hear those messages, right? Like, I was listening to a podcast the other day and it was just successful. People can always do one more rap. I'm like, I've been doing one more rap my whole life. I would actually like to do one rap less now, please, and not have the belief that that means I'm no longer successful.

00:19:52:23 - 00:20:14:10
Lisa
So really, looking at the I how much my identity has been tied to some of these behaviors. So I just think that leadership is such a fascinating, journey, because as much as we are here to lead other people and grow as leaders, ultimately our leadership journey is how well we can lead ourselves.

00:20:14:12 - 00:20:17:10
Michelle
So what do you do to slow down?

00:20:17:13 - 00:20:30:27
Lisa
It has been a practice, let me tell you. When I was once told I needed to slow down, I was like, I don't know. I don't even know what that means. Like, who does that? I have things to do. I have a I have a purpose here. And I had a I had a therapist at the time.

00:20:30:27 - 00:20:55:18
Lisa
She's like, well, you could start with taking a nap. I was like, who takes who takes naps? Like, do you not know who I am? Like, if there's an extra hour in the day, I'm going to fill it. But it was really just a practice of seeing how much I had hard wired into my identity that the doing.

00:20:55:20 - 00:20:58:26
Lisa
I didn't know who I was if I wasn't doing.

00:20:58:28 - 00:21:06:29
Lisa
So coaching is all about dismantling our current perspectives and seeing a perspective we've never had.

00:21:07:01 - 00:21:34:12
Lisa
You know this there's nothing comfortable about becoming someone new. So in learning how to slow down, it was being wildly uncomfortable about what that look like, how many things I needed to move off my plate, how many things I needed to delegate and delete, how often I was being, hard on myself and how much my identity was tied up and how much I could produce, and what I could prove to everybody else.

00:21:34:14 - 00:22:00:29
Lisa
Though it has been probably well over a decade around slowing down, and now my schedule is is quite open by design. I love to travel like you do. So by design. But it is, it is still a part of me that I wrestle with because I love being ambitious and driven. I love doing things. And I also I'm really, really good at doing nothing now, too, and not being so uncomfortable with it.

00:22:00:29 - 00:22:20:02
Lisa
So yeah, it is a bit of, it is a bit of a journey. So I would love to talk to you about that transition into one go can, because I remember you had, sponsored your first girl and then you went to Kenya and you watched her graduate.

00:22:20:05 - 00:22:20:21
Michelle
Okay.

00:22:20:24 - 00:22:39:29
Lisa
And I believe that that really shifted a part of your identity in that moment, and how you wanted to continue to show up and serve in the world, like from just the short conversation we had, it really impacted me in terms of how those moments impacted you. So I would love for you to share more, more about that.

00:22:40:01 - 00:23:12:04
Michelle
Thank you for asking. It it really was a, pivotal moment in my life. I had started sponsoring my Sliders University education in 2019, and leading up to her graduation. It was going to be fall, around my 50th birthday. And so I had, decided I was going to go to Kenya and watch her graduate and meet her in person.

00:23:12:04 - 00:23:48:12
Michelle
After having exchanged letters over a four year period. And, and so in preparation for that trip, I started a birthday fundraiser with the hopes of raising funds for my friends and family to sponsor some more girls. And, my community really showed up, and even people I didn't know, and we raised over $50,000, in 50 days to, sponsor, a number of high school students.

00:23:48:14 - 00:24:23:01
Michelle
So, I started my trip with visiting, the girls who we had sponsored, the high school students in a school called Eureka, which is in Kibera, which is the largest slum in Nairobi. And the actually, I think behind me there's a photo of of some of those girls that I met on that day. And they were such bright.

00:24:23:01 - 00:24:52:05
Michelle
Or they are, I should say, such bright, smart, beautiful, joyful young women. But what stuck with me is that in every conversation I had that day in that school with all the different girls I met, they all asked me a variation of the same two questions. Those questions were why do you care? And why do we matter? And when they asked me that question, I couldn't answer them in that.

00:24:52:05 - 00:25:34:06
Michelle
Like I got very emotional because it it made me very sad that they didn't think they mattered or that they questioned why I would care or why my community would care about them. And, so I left with that on my mind and meeting Mars Slider on her graduation day, you know, in her cap and gown, beaming from ear to ear and watching her cross that stage and seeing her friends and family members, you know, watch her be the first person in her family and community to be educated, not only in high school but in university.

00:25:34:08 - 00:26:05:26
Michelle
I mean, she shared stories with me about, like, sleeping on the streets, right? And people feeding dogs before they would feed her. And, this was a big accomplishment. Side note fast forward, Mars slider is now one of our one girl can, employees. But what? What stuck out to me from my conversations with her were that she had all these questions related to like, what's next in terms of how do you apply for a job?

00:26:05:29 - 00:26:32:11
Michelle
How do you build a LinkedIn profile, how do you write a resume? All of the questions that we have at a certain juncture in our in our, career paths. But because she was or the only one within her community to have reached this place of, you know, being educated and going into the workforce, she didn't have a community to talk to or ask those questions to.

00:26:32:14 - 00:27:10:10
Michelle
And, that's what gave me the idea to start the Opening Doors Foundation, which is a mentorship program where we pair one girl, ten university graduates with female professionals from around the globe to help them transition into the workforce through mentorship. But my heart still was with those girls who were asking me, why do they matter? And so when I learned from the founder of one girl, Ken Lottie Davis, that she was planning to retire and wind down the charity, I thought about those girls and I thought about it literally for a millisecond.

00:27:10:10 - 00:27:33:28
Michelle
I don't know, I think I don't even think that was a night I thought about it. I think I texted her before the night was like, over and told her, I'll do it. Let me take over one girl can, because I thought about those girls and me telling them they mattered. And how could I now let you know the impact that one girl can have been making for so many years?

00:27:34:00 - 00:27:42:10
Michelle
You know, that wind down. So that's what they were. The reasons why I chose to take on one girl. Ken.

00:27:42:13 - 00:27:46:23
Lisa
Isn't it beautiful when you look back on your entire career.

00:27:46:26 - 00:27:47:16
Michelle
And.

00:27:47:18 - 00:28:11:22
Lisa
You know, as Steve Jobs says, you can only connect the dots looking backwards and everything you learned, everything that you became, all of your values led right to this opportunity that was here for you. Of course, it was here for you. And now to be in a stage of your career where you get to be really living your life, but also creating legacy.

00:28:11:24 - 00:28:37:23
Michelle
Yeah. I often say this is not work. This is what I was meant to do. Yes. It's more of a calling. I go to bed and wake up every morning saying this is what I get to do, versus I have to go to work, right. So this brings me joy. I feel at peace. I don't think I've ever, in my professional career not heard stress before until now.

00:28:37:26 - 00:28:41:18
Michelle
Like I'm just like this.

00:28:41:21 - 00:29:09:07
Lisa
I love that. So if we go back to your original definition of success, Michelle, back in the early days, being the translator on the ship versus how would you define success today? Like if somebody's listening to you thinking like, I want more peace and ease, like Michelle, how do I get that fulfillment in my career? How would you tell them to define success in the later parts of their career?

00:29:09:09 - 00:29:38:00
Michelle
Well, for myself, the way I define success now is the impact that can make on others. What doors I can open that allow others to fulfill their full potential, and how I can be of service and really having like meaningful connections, conversations, interactions with people is what fuels my soul. And that's, you know what? I would define a success.

00:29:38:07 - 00:30:01:25
Michelle
Not, you know, the title after my name or you know what? You know, your comp package looks like that. Yeah. You know, I also say that from a place of privilege because I'm in a place now where I don't have to worry about that, know as much as I would have, maybe before, but that that that is success is knowing I've made a difference in someone else's life.

00:30:01:29 - 00:30:02:28
Michelle
Yeah.

00:30:03:01 - 00:30:26:23
Lisa
Isn't it interesting that I think when I was younger, success was like a place to get to a destination. And, what I've learned over the years is success is actually a feeling. Right. It's that feeling. It is about creating legacy. It is about creating impact. It's about the things that makes your soul sing. It's not about the accolades, it's not about the accomplishments.

00:30:26:23 - 00:30:56:20
Lisa
And we still get to do cool things right. Like I'm I'm still here to do all the amazing things that life has in front of me. But it really is. When you start to view success differently, you get to start to feel differently, and anybody can pull that in at any time in their life. So in knowing all of this now, because you've obviously grown and changed a lot over the years as we do as coaches and leaders like it, it's just part of the job, right?

00:30:56:20 - 00:31:06:14
Lisa
You have to grow. What are you no longer willing to sacrifice in your life anymore? That maybe you were 100% willing to sacrifice when you were young?

00:31:06:16 - 00:31:35:21
Michelle
My piece? Yeah. My piece. I would do things or take things on knowing that I would. It would create, stress, angst. It could be tumultuous. There could be dysfunction. There could be, toxicity. Whatever. Give it a name. I will not sacrifice my case. I love.

00:31:35:21 - 00:31:39:25
Lisa
That, and if you could put a price on that, your piece.

00:31:39:27 - 00:31:40:09
Michelle
What type.

00:31:40:09 - 00:31:41:08
Lisa
Of price would you put on.

00:31:41:08 - 00:31:57:14
Michelle
It? Oh, Lisa. It's hard. Questions of work. It's priceless. And it's. And you know what? It's it's it's, ongoing journey. I can't say I'm 100% there yet either.

00:31:57:16 - 00:32:22:22
Lisa
I don't think we ever 100% get there unless we're living on a mountaintop as a monk. You know, but I think the the more important question is to look at, like, what am I committed to? And if you're committed to peace in your life, you'll make different decisions. And I think that, that so many people tell themselves pieces, when then right when I do this, then I then I get to feel peaceful.

00:32:22:24 - 00:32:39:23
Lisa
And just like any goal, if you don't, if you don't get committed to like that is the actual thing I want, it won't just happen when. So it's so clear to me that every decision that you've been making has been leading you more to peace and more to fulfillment.

00:32:39:25 - 00:32:41:01
Michelle
And hey.

00:32:41:04 - 00:33:00:29
Lisa
We're just in the best half of our lives now. Like, things are just starting to get good because you've got all the wisdom. We've got all the wisdom from our early years, the things we won't do, the things we will do. I think we make better choices as we get older as well. And just a different perspective on life and what matters, because I'm sure you just like me.

00:33:00:29 - 00:33:22:10
Lisa
Because I don't think any woman can get into their 50s without having had some things in their life that rattled their cages pretty hard that force us right beyond work, because, well, we're juggling all these different things around leadership in our jobs and running teams. We're also figuring out how to lead ourselves in our lives and with our children.

00:33:22:10 - 00:33:47:10
Lisa
Right. We still have kids in high school. It's definitely a different type of parenting nowadays, for me at least. When, my older sons were in school. So that's asking a lot of me, asking me to look at different perspectives in different ways as well. So I think it's a great time to be in our 50s, to be honest, and to be at peace as a really, really good place to work from.

00:33:47:12 - 00:34:05:19
Lisa
So I'm going to ask you this question. I think I already know the answer though. Ask it anyways. When you're know, when you know you're living in a way that's truly congruent with who you are, what does that actually feel like?

00:34:05:22 - 00:34:27:28
Michelle
I shared with you before we started that this summer, I spent a lot of time in solitude, and I think there's a distinction that I think I know there's a distinction between being alone and choosing to be in solitude and.

00:34:28:00 - 00:35:03:03
Michelle
Feeling more, or being more intentional about being disconnected from a technology standpoint, being more in nature, taking the time to fuel my soul with reading, journaling, meditating, walking, taking midnight swims, you know, under the moonlight that that to me, is what feels like peace. And,

00:35:03:05 - 00:35:33:11
Michelle
It also is an opportunity to reflect and be more self-aware around the choices I've made in the past and specifically speaking people I've led into my life in the past that today I wouldn't. And being more discerning in terms of the humans I interact with and who's who I give my life force to, and whose lifeforce I want to receive.

00:35:33:13 - 00:35:46:06
Michelle
And some of the people I'm closest to right now are new people in my life. And, and that's that's I'm being more intentional. Yeah.

00:35:46:08 - 00:36:03:15
Lisa
That's very true for me as well. When I look back at my life and this may be true for you as well, there are past versions of me that I'm like, oh, I don't even recognize myself, and I love that version of me, but I'm so glad that I was able to outgrow her.

00:36:03:17 - 00:36:24:21
Lisa
Right. And really, because I think that when you're committed to doing this work about being curious about who you are, if you take off all the layers, it's really fascinating what you find. And a mentor once gave me an exercise, and I often will give it to clients where I ask them to sit for four hours in silence.

00:36:24:24 - 00:36:45:23
Lisa
And for most people, it's the first time they've ever been quiet, and it's the first time they've ever really heard all the stuff that's going on in their head, right? Because when you really sit and the object is to just be quiet, no phones, no distraction, no side to just sit in a room and be quiet. You'll start to hear all the stories you're telling yourself all the time.

00:36:45:23 - 00:37:13:06
Lisa
So I think it's such a beautiful gift that you gave yourself that time to really be in solitude. Because the way that I see it is, if you can't be in relationship with yourself, if you can't be in solitude with yourself, what does that say about the relationship you're having with yourself? Because if you love spending time with people you love and you never say, oh, I don't want, I want to spend four hours with you, but we're not willing to do that for ourselves if we're not willing to be in solitude for ourselves.

00:37:13:06 - 00:37:40:10
Lisa
It's very telling about what we think and feel about ourselves underneath the surface. So starting to be not just discerning with the relationships we're having with other people, but starting to be discerning about what is my relationship with me, what am I tolerating up here? What am I listening to? What are the voices? Where the stories? What are the narratives that I'm running, and what am I willing to release in order to create more peace in my life?

00:37:40:12 - 00:38:04:12
Lisa
So I'm curious what, now that you're back here going overseas, which is so lovely overseas, what do you believe you need to let go of here now in order to create more of what you experienced while you were overseas? Because, you know, we were talking about the schedule, the stuff, the kids there. It's a different energy there. But yeah.

00:38:04:12 - 00:38:13:23
Lisa
What what do you believe you're going to need to release in order to have more of that experience in your everyday life here?

00:38:13:26 - 00:38:48:23
Michelle
In full transparency? The last couple of weeks have been hard for me, because of that transition from what I described to what you've just described, the everyday in the schedules. And, so one of the things that and it's a work in progress. So, you know, ask me in six months and, I might have a different answer, but is the similarly to what you said earlier, the the acknowledgment that there are old stories.

00:38:48:25 - 00:39:25:29
Michelle
Yeah. That are running, old habits, old coping mechanisms, triggers here that perhaps didn't exist over there. And how can I manage those differently? So I'm reading a lot right now in terms and to better understand myself and what triggers me, and, you know, how I can, cope differently with different situations and conflict.

00:39:26:01 - 00:40:10:02
Michelle
I have no problem standing up and being in conflict if I'm defending you or someone else. But if it's for myself, I'm very conflict averse and, it creates I get very activated very easily. And even before a conflict starts, I'm I acknowledge I have hypervigilance always in, in on high alert. So starting to try and unwind some of those, habits, those, coping mechanisms so that I can be more present in myself and find that peace regardless of where I am.

00:40:10:02 - 00:40:29:13
Lisa
Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. So honestly, this is why I wanted you have on the podcast. I'm like, she'll go, she'll go there with me. Because it could be challenging when we're able to access certain parts of ourselves. And then even for me, I've been I've been honest with my own coach around this first couple of weeks of school.

00:40:29:13 - 00:41:04:24
Lisa
Not a fan, just it's it can be very challenging when I feel like my time is being restricted again. I can get into stories about time. And when I feel like I don't have control over certain circumstances, when the reality is we don't have control over anything, I can be responsible for how I show up within those circumstances, but me having a tantrum about the circumstances isn't going to be helpful, and it takes a lot of courage to be in the room with yourself and challenge your stories.

00:41:04:26 - 00:41:18:26
Lisa
I do not particularly like conflict either, and part of the way that I've reframed it and I'll offer this to you, is I start telling myself that it was going to be a conflict.

00:41:18:28 - 00:41:37:11
Lisa
And how would I just show up if I didn't expect the conflict? And I was just willing to have the conversation, because for me, growing up, there was a lot of conflict. Not in it. But, you know, I had an average growing up household. But, you know, we were Gen Xers, so it was a whole different type of life, right?

00:41:37:11 - 00:41:58:03
Lisa
You do what you're told to do and you don't push back. And I was the girl who always pushed back. But why? But why but why but why? I was always questioning everything. And it usually wasn't received very well. So I learned why. Why have a voice? Because I'm going to get told no anyways. And there was often I would sink into a lot of shame about that.

00:41:58:05 - 00:42:16:24
Lisa
And, that's what it became about for me, is I was I wasn't trying to avoid the conversation with the other person. I was trying to avoid the feelings that was going to come up within me. And when I started to realize, well, that's just about my five year old or six year old girl, and can I show up for her?

00:42:16:27 - 00:42:30:23
Lisa
So, you know, over the past couple of years, I've really there were a lot of things that happened in my life that challenged me to really look deeper at,

00:42:30:26 - 00:43:01:13
Lisa
Where the adult version of me was not in the driver's seat, but the identity that was built when I was under seven was actually making decisions, and she was the one reacting and responding in my life. And, part of my journey around knowing myself better and loving myself better and holding myself better was starting to recognize when it was her that was showing up and how I could love myself in a different way through it.

00:43:01:16 - 00:43:23:11
Lisa
And then I was able to show up in my adult self. But that has come with a lot of practice, right? Because it first starts with the oh my goodness, right? My little girl, she loves love. She loves love. So she would put herself in positions to be loved that weren't always healthy for her. So to recognize like oh you're looking for love from somebody else.

00:43:23:11 - 00:43:43:13
Lisa
But it's actually my job to love you. And the adult me cannot tolerate this. The adult me cannot be in this situation. So as much as you want to be loved, I'm going to love you. But adult me is going to take the road. And I swear, when I talk about this, people must think that I've got like multiple characters in my head, which I do.

00:43:43:16 - 00:44:08:04
Lisa
It's like that, that, movie Inside Out. Have you ever seen that? Yeah. I'm like, that's all we are. We've just got a boardroom table of, like, little children running around in our heads that are making decisions from us because most people don't realize that our identities, the things we believe about ourselves, the interpretations we're making about the world, most of it was formulated before we were seven years old, and we never question it.

00:44:08:06 - 00:44:16:09
Lisa
It's like trying to run a new iPhone on outdated hardware software. So in.

00:44:16:10 - 00:44:38:24
Michelle
The present, I was just talking to a friend of mine yesterday about how, growing up, I remember believing my parents knew everything and that they were right about everything. And I remember being in elementary school with a girlfriend in a car, driving to school, and she told me some. I don't even remember what it was she shared with me about something.

00:44:38:25 - 00:45:15:26
Michelle
I'm like, well, that's not true. And she was like, yes, it is. My mom told me the like, well, I believed in my core that she was wrong, only based on the fact that my parents had told me otherwise. And so when I reflect on that as a somewhat benign example, but so many of to your point of how we manage conflict, how we or at least in my case, how I try to like mitigate against conflict and risk assess all the time is nothing to do with actual facts of what's at threat today.

00:45:15:26 - 00:45:19:24
Michelle
It's different, you know. Yeah, that white rocks year old Michelle.

00:45:20:00 - 00:45:51:17
Lisa
I believe that the most successful people in the world are made up of, all these amazing, beautiful coping habits that we developed, digging the safe right to seek love, safety, belonging and significance. And they just went unchecked. And because they worked for so long, they created success. They created the opportunities. They, you know, like we we really celebrate these things about people, the drive, the ambition, the doing, the proving, the like, extraordinary things that they go unchecked.

00:45:51:20 - 00:45:59:15
Lisa
And then eventually things happen in our lives where we have the opportunity, not everybody takes it.

00:45:59:17 - 00:46:10:27
Lisa
But we have the opportunity to go. Well what, what if this isn't true? What if my parents didn't know what they were talking about? What if I believe isn't a fact? What if slowing down isn't lazy? That was a big one for me.

00:46:11:00 - 00:46:11:16
Michelle
Oh.

00:46:11:19 - 00:46:15:04
Lisa
I was like, what do you mean? I don't want to be a lazy person?

00:46:15:06 - 00:46:16:12
Michelle
Oh my God.

00:46:16:14 - 00:46:20:01
Lisa
I got shit to do. Like, come on, let's go.

00:46:20:03 - 00:46:49:21
Lisa
And when you start questioning everything, it is so disruptive. It's like. It's like the solid ground underneath you turns to lava, and you're just trying to find your footing somewhere. As you rebuild and reconstruct your life and your beliefs. And, it's it's a wild ride, but self-fulfilling, because I don't believe we can get to a place of peace in our lives without dismantling the stories that created the chaos in the first place.

00:46:49:23 - 00:46:51:27
Michelle
I agree 100%.

00:46:51:29 - 00:47:22:23
Lisa
So when I think about the work that you're doing with these beautiful young women, right, the wisdom because they're all carrying stories and stories that are, a lot of them grounded in actual, real, true trauma. And they get to rewrite, right? They get to rewrite what's possible for them. So you're not just giving them an education, you're installing a brand new identity that they didn't even have access to before.

00:47:22:25 - 00:47:34:18
Michelle
I'll also say, arguably they probably I learned more from them than they do from me. Okay. And.

00:47:34:21 - 00:48:13:18
Michelle
My goal, aside from ensuring we can educate as many girls as possible, is that every single one of those girls believes and knows in their heart that they matter. And that's that's just. That is why I do this work. Because those questions still come up in every school I go to. Why do we matter? To the point that I actually know, I'm doing a workshop called You Matter and and talking about, you know, how you are not defined by your worth is not defined by your circumstances, what you have or what you don't have.

00:48:13:18 - 00:48:33:15
Michelle
And, because so many of us, regardless of our circumstances, have, as I'm sure six year old Lisa felt or I felt at points, is that we didn't matter. Yeah. And so, yes, I'm learning a lot from them in my journey.

00:48:33:18 - 00:48:37:06
Lisa
I love that you said that, because I believe that is true for all of us. I think most.

00:48:37:06 - 00:48:38:01
Michelle
Of us.

00:48:38:04 - 00:48:59:01
Lisa
Believe at some point that we don't really matter. I think that's a big journey, is to realize that that was never in question. Our worth was never in question. So I love this. This is such a rich and deep conversation that kind of went, you know, as I knew it would, it would weave in and out. But I so appreciate you sharing your journey and being so open and honest.

00:48:59:01 - 00:49:17:15
Lisa
And about the work you're doing is so amazing. And, you know, you really kind of live from this place of opening doors for other people, right? Always opening doors for other people, but not even recognizing that every time. Well, I think you do every time you open a door for someone else, you're also opening doors for yourself and for your own growth.

00:49:17:15 - 00:49:31:17
Lisa
That's evident. So very, very beautiful. So tell everybody, where can they find you if they want to learn more about one girl can, or they just want to learn more about you or follow you? Where can where can we direct people?

00:49:31:19 - 00:49:59:15
Michelle
Thank you for asking, Lisa, and thank you for this conversation. Wonderful. Can you can find us online at, one goal.com, for coaching or any of, just want to connect with me. Michelle center coaching.com and on Instagram or LinkedIn. And I'm always open to fruitful deep conversations. So please remember that.

00:49:59:17 - 00:50:05:09
Lisa
And there are always girls needing support. You are actually fundraising right now are you not? Or your.

00:50:05:09 - 00:50:31:14
Michelle
Yes. Right now we have a back to school campaign, with the goal of, supplying 100 girls with school supplies for when they start grade 11 in January. So that's their school uniform, their shoes. Many of these girls, like, have to take hand-me-downs for hand-me-downs to hand-me-downs. And so, their math sets, their revision books, their stationery.

00:50:31:14 - 00:50:42:15
Michelle
And so we we launched the campaign last week. We have 22 girls, covered right now. Thank you to everyone who's supported us and hoping to get the remaining girls covered.

00:50:42:18 - 00:51:00:16
Lisa
I love that. So if you're listening to this, please reach out to Michelle, check out One Girl Can and, you know, a little bit goes a long way. You know, sometimes we think we have to do so much. But if collectively we all do a little, it actually makes a massive, massive impact. So thank you so much again for being here Michelle.

00:51:00:16 - 00:51:06:28
Lisa
I so I know we had to wait so long to have this conversation. But everything in divine timing and I'm.

00:51:06:28 - 00:51:07:14
Michelle
Just.

00:51:07:16 - 00:51:09:25
Lisa
Such a pleasure to spend this time with you.

00:51:09:27 - 00:51:13:07
Michelle
Thank you for having me, Lisa.

00:51:13:09 - 00:51:35:02
Lisa
I've spent decades watching successful people ask themselves the wrong questions. Here's the right ones. What if everything you've been trying to change isn't actually the thing that needs your attention? What if it's not about working harder, or pulling more late nights, or waiting for circumstances to change? What if it's not about your body, your bank account, or anyone else's behavior?

00:51:35:05 - 00:51:59:22
Lisa
What if it's not about learning more, having more, proving more, or accomplishing more? What if who you think you are and what you think you need were never actually true? And everything that you've been told about success, fulfillment, and happiness, everything you've even been celebrated for, is nothing more than an illusion and a highly calibrated way of coping.

00:51:59:25 - 00:52:25:16
Lisa
The Success Paradox assessment is where you get to find out. It's not another list of things to change. It's the first real look at the patterns, the beliefs, and the paradigms that have been running your life under the surface and exactly how to shift them. So success can finally feel as fulfilling as it looks. Could ten minutes save you years on the path you're already walking?

00:52:25:18 - 00:52:32:29
Lisa
I'll let you take it and find out for yourself. So go to Lisa Carpenter, aka Forward slash assessment.