EPISODE 367: Success Doesn’t Feel Like Success: Miranda Lievers on Redefining It.

00:00:01:02 - 00:00:33:00
Lisa
The very patterns that create success can quietly undermine your ability to experience it. Welcome to congruent. I'm Lisa Carpenter because at some point, success becomes about more than what you've built. It becomes about whether your life feels the way you thought it would. Each week I sit down with founders, executives, entrepreneurs, thought leaders and high capacity professionals to explore success, leadership, fulfillment and the experiences that shape them.

00:00:33:02 - 00:00:58:23
Lisa
Together, we examine how our definitions of success involve why accomplishment doesn't always create the life we expected. And what happens when we stop assuming our ways of thinking, leading and achieving are simply part of who we are. Because the question isn't whether you've achieved success, it's whether your success feels the way you thought it would.

00:00:58:25 - 00:01:25:09
Lisa
Welcome back to congruent. I'm Lisa Carpenter and this podcast is about what success actually costs and what it takes to feel as good on the inside as it looks on the outside. And I am so excited about today's guest, because it's someone I've watched transform in real time. I met Miranda Levers a few years ago at a retreat, and more recently, I watched her walk out on stage in Whistler and share her story.

00:01:25:09 - 00:01:52:09
Lisa
And I have to tell you, I barely recognized her. Not because anything about her looked different, but because the energy behind her had completely changed. Now, if you don't know Miranda, she co-founded Think Effect, one of Canada's most successful technology companies, and then took it public. And she knows the gap between external success and the internal experience of success intimately because she lived through it.

00:01:52:11 - 00:02:17:21
Lisa
The day think FM rang the opening bell. Miranda described waking up the next morning feeling empty despite everything she'd built, like she was standing alone in an empty ballroom with no idea what came next. So she stayed with the company for three more years, but then stepped away entirely. And what was supposed to be a six month sabbatical turned into two and a half years.

00:02:17:23 - 00:02:44:27
Lisa
A late autism diagnosis and a complete rebuild of how she define success, how she connects to her own body and decides what actually matters to her now. So we talk about what it felt like on the other side of making it the tactical, invisible way she's been masking most of her life and the identity crisis she now calls the price of admission for whoever comes next.

00:02:44:29 - 00:02:55:28
Lisa
So if you've ever hit the goal you've been chasing for years and then felt strangely empty on the other side of it. This episode is for you. So let's dive in.

00:02:56:01 - 00:03:06:27
Lisa
Oh, Miranda, I'm so happy to have you here. Because I don't know if you remember this, but we met at a retreat a couple years ago. I think it was 2023.

00:03:07:00 - 00:03:12:16
Miranda
Yeah. Where were you? Like? Which was it like the cold forest one, or was it like the main one where we where where are we?

00:03:12:19 - 00:03:24:15
Lisa
I think we were in Maine. It wasn't cold because we were eating outside. I was probably at the worst time of my life. I think you had just come out of something that wasn't super like you were going through transition.

00:03:24:18 - 00:03:26:00
Miranda
Yeah, a couple, yeah for sure.

00:03:26:00 - 00:03:46:22
Lisa
Right. Okay. So we didn't really connect like deeply there, but I got I got to know you. And then recently we were both up in Whistler together. And you walk out on stage and you share your story, which was phenomenal. But I literally sat back in my chair and I was like, who? Who is this woman? Because this is not the same woman that I met at retreat.

00:03:46:22 - 00:04:04:27
Lisa
Right? So I love the words that were coming out of your mouth. But what really struck me was the energy. And when I see that and doing what I do because I work with people in their unconscious patterns for, for, you know, I've been doing this for decades. I knew I had to talk to you because I was so damn curious about what had shifted in you.

00:04:05:02 - 00:04:34:13
Lisa
So that's really why I wanted to invite you onto the podcast, because your story isn't simply about building this, you know, one of Canada's most successful, technology companies. It's about becoming the person who's capable of redefining success on the other side of doing this amazing thing. So that's really where I want to start is, you know, before Think Effect became think effectively, which, you know, that's an amazing story in itself.

00:04:34:15 - 00:04:37:26
Lisa
How would you have defined success?

00:04:37:28 - 00:04:56:25
Miranda
Oh, that's a good question. Like is. So thank you as well also for the reflection of like even like a few years ago me to now me because I like it's like I know like it's like she and I have very little in common and yet everything in common at the core and all of those things. But, when I think back to.

00:04:56:28 - 00:05:14:20
Miranda
Yeah, like, how did I define success before? Like this crazy wild ride? It was just like, what was it like? Like I think like many of us, it was like what was handed to me. I was the, like, super nerdy honor student. It was like, oh, okay. Like, the job is to get the a. The job is to get this, like, the job is to get this job.

00:05:14:20 - 00:05:31:28
Miranda
The job is to get this promotion, like, whatever it was. I really just picked up what I was handed as, like, this is the plan. This is where you're supposed to be going. This is what you should want to do. Which never really sat well, anyway, I was always on the fringe of that, but, But I was still marching towards what I was.

00:05:31:28 - 00:05:32:26
Lisa
Told

00:05:32:28 - 00:05:40:29
Lisa
to write. Was success always defined for you by achievement? Like what? You like, the boxes that you could tick in the AC, you get in, the things you could.

00:05:41:00 - 00:05:45:21
Miranda
Else or like. It's like I'm like, yes, of course.

00:05:45:24 - 00:06:05:08
Lisa
So when I was growing up, I was not the smart kid. I was not the A's kid. I was a kid across the street at the McDonald's, eating my French fries and smoking my cigarettes. So I really got into this pattern of feeling like I had to prove my success. So this is why I always think it's really interesting to talk to people about how they define success.

00:06:05:10 - 00:06:24:11
Lisa
When they first started. So as you, you know, you're building this, you know, you're you're you're building think effect. When did your idea of what success was and how you defined it? When did that start to change? When did you start to go like, oh, this is it. This is not feeling so good anymore.

00:06:24:14 - 00:06:43:10
Miranda
Yeah. That's interesting. You know, it's it's so funny because, I mean, like spoiler alert for I'm sure later in this conversation, but post think of like on sabbatical. I actually got an autism diagnosis which like now makes like it recontextualize this so much of my life before this. So so so as you're asking, like when did things change?

00:06:43:10 - 00:07:08:06
Miranda
And like, how did you think I'm like, my brain is so black and white like so, so it's like, oh no, like I didn't I didn't think about the answer to that question until I was faced with sort of the other side of it. Right. Like so, so building. Think. You think it was it's like you just go heads down and just are working on an interesting problem and occasionally would sort of look up and look around and be like, oh, this is working.

00:07:08:09 - 00:07:36:05
Miranda
I don't have time to think about the fact that it's working. We just need to keep going. And that's how it was for literally years. And it was only after we had like sort of like IPO it and then all of a sudden, like, everybody knows who, the company is, if not who I am. And like all of the sudden it was like almost being, like, slammed into this wall of other people's, views of success and like, it's like, oh my gosh, like, what's it like now that you've made it?

00:07:36:05 - 00:07:55:11
Miranda
It's like, what the hell is made it like, I don't even understand. So it was only sort of like after and mostly through the eyes of like what other people were saying or expecting. And that was my opportunity to sort of reflect on like, wait, like this doesn't match my experience. And what is my experience and how do I think about this anyway?

00:07:55:13 - 00:08:13:06
Lisa
Oh my goodness. So on the other side of, selling think epic. So you'd gone through this busy period of building this business, and then all of a sudden it was like just space. What was that like for you?

00:08:13:08 - 00:08:18:03
Miranda
A good question. So just like as a quick side note, because my brain won't let me move on without it.

00:08:18:05 - 00:08:18:23
Lisa
Oh, absolutely.

00:08:18:23 - 00:08:19:05
Miranda
No, IPO

00:08:19:05 - 00:08:36:23
Miranda
is not an exit. So an IPO is just take it like you're basically still selling equity. You're just doing it on the public markets instead of on the private markets. So I love that it wasn't an exit and it wasn't a walk away, but it was obviously like a huge milestone. And then we're now operating as a public company.

00:08:36:25 - 00:09:05:04
Miranda
I did step away from the company, three years ago. So, it was sort of like a, like a gradual shift from then. But I am fully out of the company now. But perhaps, like, thinking about this, like milestones and like the other side and so on and so forth, perhaps like the, like the image that I'll leave you with or like, give you here is a lot of people will ask like, it's like, what was it like like what was it like when you IPO was like, what was it like when you like finally like made it?

00:09:05:06 - 00:09:25:25
Miranda
And it was so interesting because the day that we rang the bell, it was all virtual because of course it was Covid, but, the day that we rang the bell, was probably the most, grounding of days because it had like the six months before that was like the wildest ride of my life of, like, deep in flow and deep in work and just having so much fun working on this crazy project.

00:09:25:28 - 00:09:46:28
Miranda
But the day that it sort of, like, all came, to that completion point and getting to check off that box was actually like, it's like I woke up that day and I didn't have a calendar full of meetings, and I didn't know what I needed to be doing. And it was like standing. It was like standing in an empty ballroom the day after the crazy event, and you're just like, wait, like, have I slept?

00:09:46:28 - 00:09:52:21
Miranda
Where do I go? What do I like? There's a mess here. Who's going to clean this up? And it was very, very, grounding.

00:09:52:23 - 00:10:09:21
Lisa
So how did you move through that period? Because that like, for a lot of, the men and women that I work with, they do have those moments where they're like, well, now what? So I'm really curious, like what happened for you in that moment? How did you move through that?

00:10:09:23 - 00:10:30:01
Miranda
Yeah. Yeah. It was sort of like surreal for a time for, for a period of time because I was still there for, for time. It was still just sort of being pulled along by the situation of it. But the, the biggest, like, night and day experience, just sort of jumping forward, just compressing these two points in time was when I actually finally stepped away from

00:10:30:01 - 00:10:30:09
Miranda
the data.

00:10:30:09 - 00:10:36:05
Lisa
Yeah. I was going to ask you that was my next question. Like, what actually caused you to want to step away from from that?

00:10:36:07 - 00:10:52:10
Miranda
Yeah. Like, in short, like our our babies grow up like like our babies grow up. And I and I love the team and I continue to love the team and cheer the team on. But the role that I was in, like it shifts from being like, it's like I'm an owner of this company to like, really, I have a job here.

00:10:52:12 - 00:11:07:04
Miranda
When you're public and you have like a board and you have investors and there's a whole bunch of things, and I love my job, but I'm not a very good employee. I like to, like, just be able to, like, run and do the things that need to be done. And I'm not good at convincing, like a whole, you know, board and other people in business case.

00:11:07:04 - 00:11:21:02
Miranda
Like, that's not where I can do my best work. And so it was sort of the like continual unfolding of like, like I love this and we built this and, and I love my job and I love my customers and I love my team. And this is not the best place for me anymore. I've done what I can do here.

00:11:21:05 - 00:11:38:28
Miranda
And so, you know, I, I, I it was sort of like a, like a multi-month process to set the company up so that I could step away. And when I did, I had had I gotten really good advice from probably some of the people that you're referring to where it's like this post, success and what does that look like, and who are you on the other side of that?

00:11:38:28 - 00:11:59:03
Miranda
And a lot of people said, not to start anything new because of course the entrepreneur like instinct is to walk away and like, you've got a new company come Monday. And I was like, no, I'm going to force myself to take at least six months off. I wasn't allowed, to do anything on going like no board work, no ongoing advisory, like nothing that was going to fill my calendar.

00:11:59:06 - 00:12:14:29
Miranda
And I was like, I'm going to do self work. And I'm like, I don't know what this is because I've never had time for this, but I'm going to do self work. And of course, the very first thing that I did was I built like a very comprehensive spreadsheet of like every project that I had ever done in my whole life and what I liked about it and what I didn't like about it.

00:12:14:29 - 00:12:48:08
Miranda
And when I was perfectly crafting my future like what I wanted to like, do, and what I wanted to not do on the basis of that information. And like one thing leads to another and it turns out I'm autistic. And then I fell really far out of my head for a long period of time and was just so grateful for, that period of time where I, I could not focus on what everybody and everything had told me was what mattered, which is like success and milestones and achievement and all of this, and actually get to know who the heck, I am.

00:12:48:10 - 00:12:48:26
Lisa
And

00:12:48:28 - 00:12:53:07
Lisa
how much grief came with that process for you.

00:12:53:10 - 00:12:56:03
Miranda
Like, that's.

00:12:56:06 - 00:13:00:20
Miranda
It's an so much and yet also a gift. Like I just

00:13:00:20 - 00:13:01:01
Miranda
feel.

00:13:01:01 - 00:13:01:26
Lisa
I understand.

00:13:02:02 - 00:13:05:19
Miranda
You know, like,

00:13:05:22 - 00:13:31:08
Miranda
I think that we grow because of the experiences that we've had. And there's like, not a moment that I would change or give back because if I hadn't got like, if things hadn't unfolded exactly as they did, I wouldn't be sitting here and exactly the way that I am. And I love the experiences that I've had, and I've loved the lessons that I've had and the heartache and the pain and all of that.

00:13:31:10 - 00:13:40:13
Miranda
And so there's like, yes, there's grief, but also it's like, this is what made me

00:13:40:16 - 00:13:41:08
Miranda
I agree.

00:13:41:08 - 00:13:47:12
Lisa
And the reason that I asked that question is because,

00:13:47:14 - 00:14:09:29
Lisa
I think that when we're called to look at parts of ourselves that we've never confronted, whether it's autism or, oh, I don't need to be a perfectionist or, oh, I don't need to overwork 24 over seven or whatever it is. Right? Like there's so many different layers to this. It has become such a part of our identity. The grief is really in like, oh, this can't go with me anymore.

00:14:10:02 - 00:14:33:07
Lisa
This can't go with me if I want to build this new life. So everything that's happened in my life, because I always believe that things are happening for us, even the worst things. And I know you would agree with this, right? Like the worst things that have happened to me have been the biggest catalysts, and there was no way for me to create the transformation I've created in my own life, in my clients, without the grief.

00:14:33:14 - 00:14:37:08
Lisa
But nobody really wants to talk about the grief.

00:14:37:11 - 00:14:45:29
Miranda
Yeah. I like to say it's like, what did I say the other day. Identity crisis. Like the identity crisis is the price of admission for like the next version of us.

00:14:46:02 - 00:15:12:29
Lisa
Right. So did you take your sabbatical before or after you officially left the company? After. After. So when you took that sabbatical. So now you've been this busy, you've built this thing, you've been this busy person, and now you've got this free calendar. You're kind of discombobulated. How long did it take you to kind of settle into this is my life now?

00:15:13:01 - 00:15:45:03
Miranda
Yeah. Like the first almost six months was just vacation mode. Like I was the still the same version of me, but I was just like, I was building spreadsheets, like I says, like I was literally building spreadsheets. I'm like, this is self work. I will self work the heck out of this self work. And it took about six months before, I just fell so far outside of my head that I don't think I opened my email for like months and months and months, and that was a space that I had never like, I didn't even know that it existed to have given myself permission to go there.

00:15:45:03 - 00:16:09:20
Miranda
Like it wasn't even like I had denied it of myself. Like it was like I didn't know this was a thing. And so, so it was like, it was that, like, unfolding and, and I recognized, like, the privilege that that space gave me to get there. And I, you know, and then it turned out my, like, my six month sabbatical went on for two and a half years.

00:16:09:23 - 00:16:28:11
Miranda
And again, like, I recognized the privilege to be there, but I wouldn't give up that two and a half years for anything that came before it. Like if I had to choose every moment up until sabbatical, like up until the end of think of like or the period of time after. It's like it's not even a question, but I didn't even know that that was.

00:16:28:14 - 00:16:50:10
Lisa
I love that you said that you didn't know it was a thing, because that's the power of doing this deep identity work is it's waking up to what? There's another perspective. Like, I didn't even know. I remember when I was learning about boundaries. Miranda, I tell the story. It's so funny. I didn't get it. I had to role play boundary setting because I was like, I what?

00:16:50:16 - 00:16:52:17
Lisa
I don't, I don't. Am I doing this right? I don't.

00:16:52:17 - 00:16:53:06
Miranda
Get it.

00:16:53:09 - 00:17:07:01
Miranda
Yeah. Like, did you know that it's okay to have needs and to stay home and other people may in fact want to meet them? Like I was like, what are you talking about? Needs are just like weakness. And if you have needs, then like you need to get with the program and solve your own shit, I'm like, no, that's actually not how it works.

00:17:07:01 - 00:17:09:04
Miranda
I didn't know.

00:17:09:06 - 00:17:32:02
Lisa
That's exactly right. And I think that that's what's so this is why I love having these conversations, because people who are listening in, who have just like, well, this is just how I am. I'm just driven, I'm ambitious. I put my head down, I work, of course I have to. I've got all these responsibilities, like they they're so attached to that identity that these conversations give them the opportunity to go, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute.

00:17:32:04 - 00:17:52:02
Lisa
It used to be like that for her. It's not like that for her now, How might it be for me? I'd love to hear more. If you're open to sharing about your autism diagnosis as well, because I had another client who got diagnosed with autism and it changed her mind. It wasn't a it wasn't about attaching another identity or label to her.

00:17:52:05 - 00:18:11:23
Lisa
It was about the freedom that came on the other side of it because she was like, oh my God, now I get why I'm like this, why this doesn't work for me. What? I've been putting myself in this box for so many years that my brain doesn't even function that way. It's completely changed her life. So I'd love to hear your journey with that.

00:18:11:26 - 00:18:11:29
Miranda
Oh

00:18:12:00 - 00:18:28:10
Miranda
my gosh. Yeah, like all of the above. And so, like, I was never, I always knew that the way that I related to other people was, was slightly different. I always just said that, like, I couldn't read people, and I would surround myself with, like, my empaths who could, like, read people better than I could so that I could adapt.

00:18:28:12 - 00:18:46:01
Miranda
But I also knew that, like, I rubbed people the wrong way at different times and so on and so forth, and, but but a lot of those things I, I thought I had sort of like figured out and like found ways to work in the world. And it was actually the first time that I booked a speaking engagement after I was on sabbatical.

00:18:46:04 - 00:19:02:10
Miranda
And it was like it was like a room of tech founders. I was like, very comfortable standing up in a room of tech founders talking about scaling, like, this is like my jam. This is like my thing. And, it was also the first time that I was, like, doing a speaking like engagement where I didn't have, like, on my right hand people because, like, now I'm like out of the company.

00:19:02:10 - 00:19:27:08
Miranda
So I don't have like, oh, my right hand and past, like read over my stuff and like, tell me, like maybe that's a little off side or like whatever the thing is. And all of the sudden I was feeling like I was really nervous about giving this talk, and I was like, where is this coming from? And I realized it was like, actually, like, I'm really feeling apprehensive because I don't have somebody to help me read the room and I don't have somebody to, like, read over my stuff, like the way that like, I just had, like, normally built these things.

00:19:27:10 - 00:19:40:14
Miranda
And this was a time that I was like, I was I was like really working this out. Like I was like doing this off work. And I was like finding it's like people talk about like the inner child work or the shadow work. I'm like, oh, I had a whole classroom of inner children. And I was like, finding them and dealing with them.

00:19:40:14 - 00:19:54:05
Miranda
And if I couldn't navigate it, I would like had my therapist for that. And like, I was like really moving through a lot of stuff. But I started to have these open threads of things where it's like this sort of like, doesn't, I can't solve this one, and this one doesn't make any sense, and this one doesn't make any sense.

00:19:54:05 - 00:20:10:14
Miranda
And it was like it was around this, like this, this piece and I, I started to question, like, it's all going to come back together, but it's like I started to question. I'm like, I'm like, that kind of looks like autism. And so then I did what any good nerd does, and I was like, I will self-diagnose myself as whether or not I'm autistic.

00:20:10:14 - 00:20:31:05
Miranda
And so I did the assessment and I determined that I definitely was not autistic. I was like, Doctor Miranda says that like I do not meet the DSM five criteria for autism. But it kept like I had all these threads that kept coming up. And one of them was this idea of like, wait, like how? Like I thought that I solved my, like, anxiety around speaking my why do I have anxiety around speaking?

00:20:31:05 - 00:20:51:07
Miranda
And then I started to question where it was like, well, maybe this is autism. And I'm like, well, if I was autistic, then what are the other ways that I might be masking? And then I was like, oh, that was a whole can of worms, which we can get into. Things like, like even when you saw me, like what I wore and what I wear now is totally different because I used to just, like, walk into the store and I would find, like, the least egregious mannequin.

00:20:51:07 - 00:21:06:19
Miranda
And I would be like, I would buy everything that that mannequin is wearing. And, like, I didn't have a sense of, like, style. My music that I listened to was like a subset of my partner's music. I couldn't answer the question of what I like to listen to. It was like it was just like the acceptable version of what everybody else had.

00:21:06:24 - 00:21:24:22
Miranda
And so like, I started like, so I was really like, I had all these open threads and I was like, well, I keep moving back to this autism thing, but I'm definitely not autistic because I did the full analysis and I was like, I will hire a psychologist just to tell me that I'm not autistic, so that I can stop spinning on the fact that I, like, have these open threads.

00:21:24:22 - 00:21:38:08
Miranda
And it turns out that I really am very autistic. And now I see it. And it's quite comical that the prior version of me was so literal and couldn't even, like, see myself in the assessment. And then that sort of like opened the like. Now it's been like three years.

00:21:38:10 - 00:21:39:19
Lisa
Of like, oh my goodness.

00:21:39:24 - 00:21:40:24
Miranda
The waterfall from there.

00:21:40:28 - 00:21:57:23
Lisa
So this was life changing for you. So talk to me about then some of these masks that came off and how you stepped into being who you were, because the woman that I saw on stage, if I can reflect this back to you, you were just lighter. You were more grounded. You you knew who you were up there.

00:21:57:25 - 00:22:06:25
Lisa
And it was just it was really beautiful to witness because like I said, I've seen you in 2023, and I'm like, I think she's angry. I don't know what she's angry about.

00:22:06:27 - 00:22:30:14
Miranda
But I can appreciate that I come across that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like like I saw it like it was like one mask after another. And then all of a sudden, like, I needed to recontextualize, like, every experience was. The best way I can put it is that it was all cataloged the wrong way. So, like, some of the most tactical things, were like, I didn't think that I had sensory sensitivities.

00:22:30:14 - 00:22:46:03
Miranda
Like, if you would have asked me like, it's like, do you have any sensory sensitivities? It's like, that sounds like a need. That's weakness of like, no, I definitely, absolutely do not have sensory sensitivities, but I would do things like that. Think of it for years. I would go to the office at like 5 a.m. or it's like 530.

00:22:46:03 - 00:23:02:04
Miranda
I was one of the first people there most of the time, and I would say it was because I needed heads down time before everybody was pulling me into meetings all day. But it's actually because, like, I literally can't get work done because I can't think if there are other voices I would listen to, like I would listen to music with no lyrics.

00:23:02:04 - 00:23:26:15
Miranda
I knew that if I had music with lyrics that I couldn't concentrate, so I had to like, have like binaural beats or whatever, like. But I had been solving these problems that I was experiencing, but slightly the wrong way. I just thought that, like, my meeting schedule meant that working at 5 a.m. was like, better for me. I thought that like, it's like the lyrics and music, it it occurred to me that I needed to not have that, but it had never had occurred to me that other voices in the room were like, actually the same thing.

00:23:26:15 - 00:23:42:29
Miranda
And like, I actually just like, need the actual silence. I can't have other voices in order to think. I used to think like, strategy sessions would drive me crazy where we would like, talk about the material and then make decisions the same day because I was like, no, like I need time to be able to process this.

00:23:42:29 - 00:24:01:05
Miranda
I was like, yeah, because I needed to go home so that I could think because when I wasn't around, the other voices, so that I could actually, like, use the, like functional part of my brain to process the thing. Like so I've been solving all of these things, but like, without the understanding of what the actual problem I was solving was, which meant that it was like suboptimal.

00:24:01:05 - 00:24:17:03
Miranda
Like it was suboptimal. Right? Like I wasn't I didn't know what style or what I wanted to look like because I was just trying to be palatable to other people. So I would buy what was on the mannequin I was trying to be palatable by, like listening to a subset of like, music that my partner like, because heaven forbid, I have my own tastes.

00:24:17:05 - 00:24:34:29
Miranda
And it was like when it was really just that question of like, wait, like if I, if I'm masking, like, where might I be masking and what might be picked up? And it turns out, like most of everything that was me was picked up along the way and wasn't something that I had chosen and like, it really just gave me that opportunity to be like, okay, great.

00:24:34:29 - 00:24:46:23
Miranda
Like if I'm starting from a blank slate, like what it like, what does that look like? You know, and so like, yeah, like and it's everything, like in everything, everything is different.

00:24:46:25 - 00:25:06:12
Lisa
What is so interesting, as you said, you would surround yourself with your empathetic friends so that they could read the room. And I'm like, wow, it's so fascinating because you were reading the room all the time and adapting for what you needed to thrive without even realizing that you were like a sponge of like, how do I just fit into this world that doesn't fit for me?

00:25:06:17 - 00:25:27:01
Miranda
Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the biggest unlocks for me, and one of my favorite was like, it took me a long time because there's like this idea that, like, I knew that sometimes I would read people the wrong way or sometimes or like, people would, like, react to me the wrong way, or people would react as though I was angry at them or something, where it's like I knew that that wasn't my intent.

00:25:27:01 - 00:25:48:26
Miranda
Or like, sometimes people would ghost me. Like, there was like all these weird experiences that I had and, one of my favorite sort of like realizations. And it came over a long period of time, a sort of hard one was like the idea that I was always showing up at what I thought, like, as what I thought other people needed or wanted me to be.

00:25:48:29 - 00:26:09:28
Miranda
But I even know how often it feels like when somebody is trying to, like, fit in, when it's like, not their default. Like it feels all like even to me, who thought that I couldn't read anybody. Like, it's like it's like, no, that feels really off. But that's how I was showing up to most people because I was trying to be who and what, like I thought that they wanted me to be.

00:26:10:00 - 00:26:25:26
Miranda
And it was all of a sudden the realization that, like, we like, I'm going to cry. It's like, it's like I'm not in the wrong place if I just am me and I am exactly in the right place, and I am exactly all that I am, and people will come into my life for a time where they won't or like they will be like, actually, this isn't where I want to be.

00:26:25:26 - 00:26:36:19
Miranda
And they'll go and they can do that because like, like I, how can I be in the wrong place? I'm, I'm just being me. And it was that that to me was the biggest shift.

00:26:36:22 - 00:26:59:29
Lisa
I love that you can make me cry. I never thought you were angry at me. I just thought you were angry. But I was not. I was not in a good place either. There'd been a lot of stuff that went on, but what you just said there was so profound because, you know, part of the shifts that I've gone through over my years of, of doing this work as well was, one of my mass was, how can I look a certain way and be a certain way?

00:26:59:29 - 00:27:18:22
Lisa
So people don't approach me, because if they don't approach me, they're not going to see that behind the scenes. I'm like dealing with I don't think I'm good enough, I don't fit in, I'm not smart enough, blah, blah, blah, right? So if I just look this way, that I block connection, right? And I got called out by one of my therapists way back in the day and I was like, oh, okay.

00:27:18:22 - 00:27:35:28
Lisa
So Lisa, you can you can look and be however you want, right? Like it's our physical body. We get to do whatever the hell we want with address it, make up whatever you want to do, but do it from a place of you're doing it for you and not doing it for what anybody else will think or feel about you.

00:27:35:28 - 00:27:56:16
Lisa
And then it's my job to always make sure, because connection is one of my highest values, that I don't slip into that mask again and then suddenly stop connection. Which is why I make it a point of walking up to people, because I know that I can come off as, I've been told I'm intimidating. I'm five foot one and you know nothing pounds.

00:27:56:18 - 00:28:15:25
Lisa
And people will tell me I'm intimidating, but I get that I can come off with that energy. You're a really big force in a room. Like you're a big energy person, too. And it's the same for you. But you are like, when with those masks down, I was like, I'm just going to go up and talk to her because I saw the wall wasn't there.

00:28:15:27 - 00:28:31:17
Lisa
And that was really beautiful. And I'm so glad that we did get to, connect. So I'm curious, do you think the woman who built think effectively could have created the life that you're living today?

00:28:31:20 - 00:28:43:11
Miranda
Like. Like, no. Like, I know, go through like I'm like, I love her and I give her so much grace and we are not the same.

00:28:43:13 - 00:28:57:14
Miranda
But the flip side is also true. Like a lot of people are like, oh a late diagnosis is like like, do you wish that you'd had it earlier? And it's like, I don't think that I could have done what I did. Like, I it's like I had to go through exactly how I did in order to land where I am.

00:28:57:14 - 00:28:58:27
Lisa
Right. Yeah.

00:28:59:00 - 00:29:03:16
Lisa
Would you say you're a very visual person? Do you see pictures in your head? Are you ever like.

00:29:03:19 - 00:29:06:21
Miranda
Like to the extent that I have, like tattooed like.

00:29:06:23 - 00:29:29:20
Lisa
Right. Okay, I know this. I know this about you because you're very you talk quickly, and people who talk quickly are visual thinkers. They see pictures in their head. I'm more kinesthetic, so my pace is slower. So I actually have to to speed up. The reason that I'm bringing that up is, has completely left my brain because I'm menopausal now.

00:29:29:23 - 00:29:30:15
Lisa
So it's like it's like.

00:29:30:16 - 00:29:34:24
Miranda
Stand that so deep, like authority is like life changing.

00:29:34:26 - 00:29:51:26
Lisa
Oh my God, oh my God, I can't I can't believe that the question just like left my brain. It was such a good question too. But it will it will come back to me. But yeah, it was a curiosity around. Are you a visual person? Do you think that that has helped you in your life, being able to see pictures?

00:29:51:28 - 00:30:18:23
Miranda
Yeah. Like it's sort of everything like that. Like the work I'm doing now is really about, how do I like my brain is a pattern matching machine. Like, that's just how it works. But it does like, it's visual. Like, it's like, I, I never used to say this because this just sounds like way too woo for, like, most people, but it's like it's like I see business models in my head, like, it's like I, I always viewed like the company, mine or other people when I'm talking to it.

00:30:18:23 - 00:30:39:16
Miranda
Like I see it as like a system of like pipes and flow and water. And it's like often it's like, oh, we think the problem is over here because the water's not coming out. But it's actually like the system is actually backed up over here. There's a leak or there's like a backlight, like I see it all visually, and then I have to do the work to be able to like, back it out to words that I can explain it in a way that other people can see it.

00:30:39:16 - 00:30:42:29
Miranda
But but that's how. Yeah. Like that's how I see by default.

00:30:42:29 - 00:31:01:21
Lisa
I love this. Okay, so I remember where I was going with this, because part of this journey that I know has happened for you, because you're a visual person and you're a thinker, you're up in your head. I know you had to learn how to connect in with your emotions. So as a as a kinesthetic, that's my primary modality of sensing the world.

00:31:01:26 - 00:31:25:16
Lisa
I hear things that people are saying. I feel things in my body. I use overthinking as a way to disconnect for my emotions, but I had to connect my head in my heart as well. So tell me about that journey, because I know that for people who are really, really smart, that that becomes a mask for them. That is also really hard to put down and be like, oh, I'm going to learn to trust my body.

00:31:25:21 - 00:31:41:18
Lisa
I'm going to not learn to trust my feelings, says most and most of us when we were young, we were taught like, your feelings didn't matter. So we, you know, we compound it. So I would love to hear a little bit about how we move from up here and into into the body.

00:31:41:21 - 00:31:53:04
Miranda
Oh, like what a work in progress. Like, I like I've been telling people it's like, oh, I'm like basically a toddler. I didn't know that I had feelings until a couple of years ago. Like literally because like, yes, you're right. Like I literally live.

00:31:53:04 - 00:31:54:02
Lisa
From from the neck up.

00:31:54:08 - 00:32:13:26
Miranda
Yeah. And like I said, is like even to the fact that, like, it's like I've always seen and felt like it's like I feel it in my body when something is wrong and a business model like mine or somebody that I'm talking to. But then I have to back it out to words. But even that, like, I didn't actually log that as a feeling like it was just like I was like, I don't know, it was like a weird thing, like, that's how my brain works.

00:32:13:26 - 00:32:30:15
Miranda
But my brain, my brain, I only had a brain. I didn't have a body. Yeah. I believe that I'm the size that I am because I attributed all feelings up until a couple of years ago to, hunger. So it's like if, like if I felt wrong, it's like. It's like, oh, like my blood sugar must be low.

00:32:30:15 - 00:32:36:06
Miranda
I must be hungry. I must, like, be like, whatever. And then I. And then I would just like, just like, absent mindedly eat.

00:32:36:12 - 00:32:36:23
Lisa
Yeah.

00:32:37:00 - 00:32:54:02
Miranda
And it's only, like, it's only in the last couple of years. Like, that was like a big unlock for me, which is like, oh no, like that's those are feelings. And like, that's, it's not, it's not just, like it's not just hunger and it's like and so like that, like, that's why I'm the size that I am.

00:32:54:02 - 00:33:10:13
Miranda
And then I like it. Now I get to navigate that. But, but it's sort of like a, it's an ongoing process and I'm like very, I was, I was saying like, I'm like a baby at it and, and like learning to sit with my feelings. And it turns out like you actually do have to sit with them like they don't.

00:33:10:13 - 00:33:35:08
Miranda
You can't just intellectualize them away. And, and a bunch of those biggest unlocks were like, I tried real hard to intellectually like to, like, do all the workarounds. And then eventually you're like, oh, no, I just need to sit with this. And I'm learning how to do that and learning to listen more. And also learning to like the one of the biggest ones is learning how to like, listen again to like, the needs and like, what I need.

00:33:35:11 - 00:33:53:02
Miranda
Because I didn't like probably the most tactical thing that I'm still navigating now is, like I really over people really quickly. And I need to be very careful managing my energy, especially at events like something like a North, like where we met, most recently, like, I like, I need to take breaks. I need to, like, escape to my room.

00:33:53:02 - 00:34:05:10
Miranda
I need to not book anything for three days when I get home. Like, it's like I have to do, like, tons now around management to be able to do that. Because it turns out I actually do have feelings. I just didn't listen to them and didn't know for very long time.

00:34:05:14 - 00:34:25:14
Lisa
You do, and you're actually highly sensitive to energy. And we're when we're around a lot of people, we're absorbing their energy, even if we haven't necessarily talked to them or spent a lot of time with them. Yeah. And that, you know, so you're seeing that. So that also ties back to this relationship with your body. Your body has been absorbing all of this, giving you feelings.

00:34:25:14 - 00:34:44:29
Lisa
And then, you know, I have all I've said for years because for the early part of my career, I worked with women around their bodies and their relationship with their bodies. And I'm like, the problem is not the food. It's the lack of being able to feel and be with what's coming up for us, because we immediately go to, what do I need to give myself to soothe myself?

00:34:45:02 - 00:35:01:08
Lisa
So how is it? I mean, I didn't know we were going to go in this direction, but do you have more reverence for your body now? Do you see your body? Because when we work from the neck up, what I find with people is they really praise this part of themselves, and they really have no love or reverence for anything from the neck down.

00:35:01:08 - 00:35:12:10
Lisa
So I'm curious, like, is this part of what you're walking through now is having more reverence for your body and just really, loving yourself at a different level?

00:35:12:12 - 00:35:28:28
Miranda
Yeah, yeah. Like like I would say that it's not a piece, like it's not part of it that I've necessarily, like, spent a lot of time thinking about or diving into, but like, like 100%. Yes. Like I literally only existed from my neck up before, and it turns out like it's like I'm a whole being that's like I do da.

00:35:29:00 - 00:35:47:14
Lisa
And I think, you know, when we're learning how to feel our feelings. Because I learned this in, a room at rehab. I wasn't there for rehab. I was there learning how to fix my addict, which was the wrong strategy, by the way. Wrong strategy was really about fixing myself. But we were in a room. Grown ass adults, smart people.

00:35:47:16 - 00:36:09:14
Lisa
And the room was covered like a kindergarten room with pictures. Like feeling pictures, happy, sad. And we weren't. We weren't allowed to say fine. So when we sat down and we all had to do a feelings check in and we weren't allowed to say fine. And I remember literally looking around the room trying to identify what I was actually feeling, because I had about five feelings that I could access and that, and that was it.

00:36:09:22 - 00:36:27:04
Lisa
So it really is a journey, and especially learning to be with the emotions that don't feel good, because we've been kind of programed to move away from that instead of just, can I expand my capacity to hold this discomfort within myself and know that it'll come in and it's going to roll back out again?

00:36:27:07 - 00:36:46:10
Miranda
Yeah. It's so funny that you mentioned like, the feelings wheel because I like literally I just thought that again, like I probably had five and I thought everything else was just a literary device. Like at like I knew that. I knew that they were words like I could use them, I could define them, but I couldn't actually, like, associate the difference between, like, how does this feel in your body versus this?

00:36:46:10 - 00:36:48:22
Miranda
I'm like, wait, what? Does not a thing.

00:36:48:24 - 00:36:50:06
Lisa
Oh my god.

00:36:50:08 - 00:36:51:09
Miranda
Love literary device.

00:36:51:09 - 00:37:03:00
Lisa
Yeah I love who you've become. Do you love do you become like when you look back at the old version of yourself versus who you are today? Do you love who you've become? Do you love where this has taken you?

00:37:03:01 - 00:37:17:14
Miranda
This is so fun. Like it turns out like like this is way more fun. Like whatever I was doing before, it wasn't fun. Like, I if you would have asked me at the time though, if I was happy and having fun, like of course I was like, I would have said yes. Yeah, because you can't know what you don't know.

00:37:17:16 - 00:37:19:14
Miranda
I like this is way more fun.

00:37:19:16 - 00:37:42:00
Lisa
It is way more fun. So what is on the horizon for you now? So you've come off sabbatical. You've got this amazing brain that you still want to be able to use and help people. Tell me about what you're working on now from this version of you and what like when you think forward about, okay, this is what I thought success was going to be, and this is really where I see success.

00:37:42:00 - 00:37:45:00
Lisa
Now for me, how do you define that?

00:37:45:02 - 00:38:10:26
Miranda
Oh that's weighty. I had given myself like early on in my sabbatical, I came up with this idea or I, I don't remember where it came from. I might have, I might have heard snippets of it, but this, this concept of footnote and to me, like coming off of something that was so big was how do I make the future of me so significant in whatever definition I define?

00:38:10:26 - 00:38:41:11
Miranda
Not like this. Like what achievement, but like so meaningful that it makes everything prior to this moment merely a footnote in my biography. Wow. And that's really intimidating when what you've done has already objectively impacted, like literally hundreds of millions of lives have, been impacted by the work that we did. And and so I've been sitting with that like for three years of like I tattoo, I literally tattooed it on my arm.

00:38:41:11 - 00:39:02:19
Miranda
I have like like it's like it's part of my tattoo because I like, I'm young, I like it's like it's like there's so much that I want to do, and I. And I feel like I've got this place now where it's like. It's like, I don't need to check any more boxes for anybody else. Like, I just don't like, you know, it's like, yes, there are like, I could have raised more money or like, have more money or like hit like some bigger version.

00:39:02:19 - 00:39:22:01
Miranda
I don't care, like, it's like I IPO the company that we found up, like I was like, I get to check off like fucking one entrepreneurship like done I guess from that. But now like now it's like oh so then so, so putting this in front of myself and I had lots of time to think about. It's like, well, what actually matters to me?

00:39:22:04 - 00:39:40:11
Miranda
And it turns out that like even when I have space and choice and again, like I, I recognize, like the significant privilege of having space to sit in that and not have to worry about these things for some time. But but at the end of the day, I am just unabashedly addicted to the light in people's eyes when I shine about what they're passionate about.

00:39:40:13 - 00:40:01:28
Miranda
And that is never more true than with entrepreneurs. And it turns out that, like, I'm just nerdy about small business and like, I see things like visually that other people can't. And like, I can take the thing that actually lights me up and help other people do what they're here to do, like more and longer. And then it's actually just selfish because then I get to see them like I've been like, that's all I want in the world.

00:40:02:01 - 00:40:24:25
Miranda
And so it's like, it's like that. Like that's that's the way I can help. I think that I think that the world is like, we have made it so much harder on ourselves. We can have all the conversations about how messed up the systems that we're in and like the goddamn patriarchy and capitalism and all of it and everything that's happening with AI and all of that and and those aren't things that I can change.

00:40:24:25 - 00:40:45:29
Miranda
But what I can change is I can help people who are doing what they're doing because they're passionate about doing it. I can help them do it another day. And so where it's like past version of me helped entrepreneurs with technology, my goal and my plan and what I am doing now is, is to help with my words.

00:40:46:02 - 00:41:06:16
Miranda
I'm writing a book, but that is just a vehicle because I want to change the language that we use about scaling, helping like entrepreneurs who are too big to wing it, too small to feel stable in that whole mess that is scaling. And the only thing that the sort of like corporate maturity machine hands everybody is EOS and traction, and you need systems and playbooks, and that's the answer.

00:41:06:16 - 00:41:31:02
Miranda
And it's like, actually that's not the answer. That's what's required to hold up the machine once you get it to that size. But that does not actually help it get to that size. And I think I can help. And so that's, the work that I am, I am doing now and battling all my own stuff. Because, you know, what's really fun is to sit down and, like, write all my words to myself, and, and I now need to, like, it's like, oh, but I, they only work if I get them out into the world.

00:41:31:07 - 00:41:32:02
Miranda
So I'm.

00:41:32:04 - 00:41:33:16
Lisa
So they need you.

00:41:33:21 - 00:41:34:21
Miranda
That's where I'm at.

00:41:34:23 - 00:42:00:13
Lisa
They do. So what I'm hearing is you're really in this era of creating legacy like work that really, really matters to you in a different way. And you're still so young, so who knows where it's going to evolve like, that is so exciting. You're like the little kid twirling in the middle of the the yard with your arms open wide, being like, I don't know where I get to have it all, which is such a beautiful place to be in.

00:42:00:13 - 00:42:22:13
Lisa
When you put down the like, oh God, the you have to achieve, have to achieve, have to achieve when that disappears. Because that's kind of where I'm at in my business. I love what I do, I get to do work that inspires me every day with amazing people, and I live a fantastic life. I've built a beautiful business, a beautiful life for myself, and I've so unplugged myself from there.

00:42:22:13 - 00:42:43:15
Lisa
It's got to be more, it's got to be more. It's got to be more because it's really like, I think it's Tony Robbins that says success without fulfillment is not success. And that's where I live from. And a simple life doing legacy work that impacts people. That's to me, that's what it's all about. So I love hearing that from from you.

00:42:43:17 - 00:42:54:25
Lisa
So where you are today, what has become more important and what has become less important?

00:42:54:27 - 00:43:02:20
Miranda
More important is. Yeah, like just like really like.

00:43:02:23 - 00:43:23:09
Miranda
Doing what I want and getting to figure out, like, what it is that I want. Most of our life is constrained by rules that, like, somebody handed us or we handed ourselves, and I just break all of them now, like, into the just to touch a little bit on because you talked about, like, being a little kid, like with like, arms out of, like getting to play.

00:43:23:12 - 00:43:41:00
Miranda
And for some of your listeners is like, I'm 46. Like, I feel like. And I feel like I'm a tiny like I'm a child because, like, it turns out like we can just break all the rules and they're mostly our own rules, and we can have all the fun and and like all of these things about even like, what is like what is middle age look like and like, you can't do that anymore.

00:43:41:00 - 00:43:55:06
Miranda
I'm like, I was a base coach last weekend. Like, you can go dancing until sunrise. The key is you have the prenup, so then you can make it till sunrise. We used to pre drink, now we prenup, but it's like. It's like nothing like who says like who says you can't go dance. Who says you can't change how relationships look like?

00:43:55:06 - 00:44:12:18
Miranda
I have a husband of 26 years. I have two beautiful children, and I have a very beautiful Italian girlfriend. Because, like, who says the relationships need to look the way that we said, like, all of these things? And so, I don't remember what the question you asked is, but like, it's like, yeah, like, we just get to define it.

00:44:12:18 - 00:44:22:29
Miranda
We don't have to be held to the version of us that we held ourselves to, or that society held us to, and, and we can create the future that we want to be in.

00:44:23:06 - 00:44:40:21
Lisa
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is more freedom, more being who you are, whatever you want, and less rules. Yeah, right. Redefining our rules. And that's the thing. Like, people don't get it. I had a coach asked me once about, you know, I don't know how it came up, but it was like, okay, you're driving on a country road and it's the middle of the night.

00:44:40:24 - 00:44:53:26
Lisa
How do you drive down the road? I'm like, well, I drive down the middle of it. She's like, what do you mean? You drive down the middle of the road. I'm like, if it's a country road, it's the middle of the night. Excuse me, there's no cars out. I'm like, why would I, why would I drive in the lane?

00:44:53:28 - 00:45:00:23
Lisa
And it literally broke her brain. And I'm like, this is, this is for me. I'm like, I'm going to take up the whole road.

00:45:00:23 - 00:45:09:20
Miranda
Even the ruts allow you to do that because they're paced like they're spaced appropriately and logically. If a deer or a moose is going to run in front of you, you want to probably be fine.

00:45:09:20 - 00:45:30:25
Lisa
We'll be fine. I'm going to be in the middle. But, you know, I so often people don't actually look up and look at their lives and say, what are the rules I'm living by? Who gave these to me? Are they even true? If they're not true for her, why are they true for me? And that alone, when you start to wake up to that is so life changing,

00:45:30:27 - 00:45:46:19
Lisa
Amazing. So if someone is listening and feels like they've outgrown the life that they've worked so hard to build, what would you invite them to be curious about?

00:45:46:21 - 00:46:06:16
Miranda
Yeah, it's like get like there's so many things. I'm like, how do I answer that question? Maybe there's two things that I would say like, one is, I like to say it's like like a race the rules and get like, you need to step outside of the world that you're in and the version of you in order to even see what's possible.

00:46:06:18 - 00:46:28:09
Miranda
And I think that that can be really hard to do when we're living a life, and we're in it, like especially the other people tend to hold us to the version of us that they know. And so this is a very tactical one, but it's like, like find a way to get outside of you. And so this is like a lot of people will go and that like they'll travel and they'll have like because you get to be like when you're in anonymous in a new space.

00:46:28:11 - 00:46:50:03
Miranda
I actually encourage people to travel alone because when you're anonymous in a new space and nobody is holding you to a version of you that like that they have in their head, you can try on like different versions of you, because you can show up in a room that, like, nobody has any expectation of you and you don't have to have any expectation of you, and you can just explore what the edges of that look like.

00:46:50:05 - 00:47:08:08
Miranda
And what else? Yeah. I also tell people it's like, if you can't, if you can't take a long sabbatical, then like, like throw caution to the wind and go to Burning Man alone for the same reason, because it's like, just get outside of the version of you in the constraints of you and the life that you have now.

00:47:08:08 - 00:47:13:07
Miranda
Like, I think you need to get out of it to be able to see that it's all an illusion.

00:47:13:10 - 00:47:35:06
Lisa
I agree travel has changed my life. And I remember you telling the story of dancing in the cage and I was like, oh wow, I love that, I love that. Could I be that version? Right? Like, and this is why I love I love storytelling, I love when people tell their stories because it does invite us into, oh, I've never thought of it that way.

00:47:35:09 - 00:47:52:08
Lisa
And who would I be? So you know, what I'm really taking from this conversation is it's we we get full permission to look at the version of who we are and start to redefine it doesn't matter what level of success you're at, you get to redefine success. You get to create it and make it mean whatever you want.

00:47:52:10 - 00:48:15:18
Lisa
We can rest, we can play, we can build amazing things, and that we never have to be tied to one identity. And I think you are such a beautiful example of what happens when you actually do the work that's important in this life. And that work is like who you are without all the things you've told yourself about who you think you should be.

00:48:15:20 - 00:48:26:21
Lisa
And, it was just this has been a such an amazing conversation. I'm so glad that you came on. Tell people where they can find you so they can creep, creep on you on social media for people who don't know you. Yep.

00:48:26:24 - 00:48:33:12
Miranda
Instagram Miranda levers, or LinkedIn. And then I'm writing, over at Twitch, the playbook sitcom.

00:48:33:14 - 00:48:38:05
Lisa
I looked, I looked so people can even apply to work with you if they want your eyeballs on their stuff.

00:48:38:11 - 00:48:39:01
Miranda
You bet.

00:48:39:03 - 00:48:47:10
Lisa
Which is amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Miranda. It's really been an amazing conversation. I was so I was so happy you said yes to it.

00:48:47:13 - 00:48:49:25
Miranda
This has been a delight. Thank you so much for having me.

00:48:49:27 - 00:48:50:26
Lisa
You're welcome.

00:48:50:28 - 00:49:12:21
Lisa
I've spent decades watching successful people ask themselves the wrong questions. Here's the right ones. What if everything you've been trying to change isn't actually the thing that needs your attention? What if it's not about working harder, or pulling more late nights, or waiting for circumstances to change? What if it's not about your body, your bank account, or anyone else's behavior?

00:49:12:24 - 00:49:37:11
Lisa
What if it's not about learning more, having more, proving more, or accomplishing more? What if who you think you are and what you think you need were never actually true? And everything that you've been told about success, fulfillment, and happiness, everything you've even been celebrated for, is nothing more than an illusion and a highly calibrated way of coping.

00:49:37:14 - 00:50:03:05
Lisa
The Success Paradox assessment is where you get to find out. It's not another list of things to change. It's the first real look at the patterns, the beliefs, and the paradigms that have been running your life under the surface and exactly how to shift them. So success can finally feel as fulfilling as it looks. Could ten minutes save you years on the path you're already walking?

00:50:03:07 - 00:50:10:18
Lisa
I'll let you take it and find out for yourself. So go to Lisa Carpenter, aka Forward slash assessment.