EPISODE 333: The Hidden Cost of Financial Control: Why Successful Women Still Feel Broke with Lisa Chastain

00:00:06:29 - 00:00:33:12
Lisa
You built success that looks damn good on the outside, but inside it's costing you your health, your relationships, your energy. And no matter how much you do, it never feels like enough. Welcome to Congruent. I'm Lisa Carpenter, the coach. High performers call when they can afford to burn it all down, but they can't keep living like this either.

00:00:33:14 - 00:00:58:24
Lisa
Here we rip off the mask of success and expose what's real. The patterns that you keep running, the price that you've paid, and how to build success that fuels you instead of empties you. Real success is agency. It's powerful self leadership to run your life instead of being run by it. To let your drive and your well-being finally work together.

00:00:58:27 - 00:01:11:04
Lisa
Because the real win is success. That actually feels good.

00:01:11:06 - 00:01:36:18
Lisa Carpenter
who feel broke not because their bank accounts are empty, but because no amount of money makes them feel safe. They're white knuckling every spending decision and lying awake anxious, even though objectively they're fine. And I get it. For years, I believed money would change everything and finally make me feel good enough to be successful. Welcome to congruent.

00:01:36:19 - 00:02:00:29
Lisa Carpenter
I'm Lisa Carpenter, and this podcast is about the truth beneath success. The cost we carry to prove were enough and what it takes to build lives that actually feel good. Today I'm sitting down with Lisa Chastain, financial coach, bestselling author of Stop Budgeting, Start Living, and host of The Real Money podcast. What drew me to her is what we bond over.

00:02:01:01 - 00:02:28:15
Lisa Carpenter
We've both been in relationships with active addiction. We've both carried that codependent pattern of trying to fix our way to safety, and we've both done the work of recognizing our relationship with money was never about money. Lisa did everything right. Degree job. House at 24. Married at 25 until her husband lost his job. Addiction took over and she watched it all unravel.

00:02:28:17 - 00:02:55:17
Lisa Carpenter
She drained her 401 K trying to save him, only to realize she was both the problem and the solution. Lisa reveals why budgeting keeps you stuck. How financial shame cost successful women more than the actual money problems and what it takes to trust yourself with money. Instead of white knuckling your way through it. If you're doing everything right, but still feel one emergency away from falling apart.

00:02:55:20 - 00:02:58:06
Lisa Carpenter
This one's for you. Let's dive in.

00:02:58:09 - 00:03:19:29
Lisa Carpenter
We got two Lisas on the podcast today. My transcriber is going to be like, woo, what's going on here? I'm so happy to have you. Lisa, I've been waiting a long time to have you on the podcast. So when people see everything you've built your bestselling author in on stages, you are empowering women to feel good about their money, confident about their money.

00:03:20:02 - 00:03:39:04
Lisa Carpenter
It's pretty easy to assume that you have everything figured out because that's what successful people have, right? We've got it all figured out. But I know there's a much deeper story behind what got you here. So tell me a little bit about, what people don't see about your journey.

00:03:39:06 - 00:04:04:11
Lisa Chastain
Well, we spent to your point, we spend a lot of time positioning ourselves in the media because we have a message and we have important work that we're doing. And I believe that that's the case for all female business owners. There's something that you do that's really, really valuable. And when it comes to money, there's a whole lot that happens on the back end of our businesses that I have the privilege of seeing every single day with my clients.

00:04:04:14 - 00:04:32:08
Lisa Chastain
That feels a lot like a roller coaster, and highs and lows and debt and shame and guilt. And I have all of those emotions to me. And I'm a blue collar girl. My dad's a stagehand. I grew up in a dirt road in Las Vegas before Las Vegas was what it is today. And in order for me to become who I am today, I have great empathy and care for the women and the people that I have the privilege of working with.

00:04:32:11 - 00:05:00:07
Lisa Chastain
Because becoming a financial advisor, working around millionaires, I was so out like a fish. What a duck! Out of water or fish out of water is what they say. And I was so unworthy, even though I had the tests, even though I could pass the exam, even though I could talk about investment portfolios. I walked into a room and I was like, this is not even a world that I recognize, and I've inserted myself into the middle of it every single day.

00:05:00:07 - 00:05:25:00
Lisa Chastain
I'm working on my mindset every single day. I'm driving to the office questioning my decisions. Am I in the right place, pushing past and breaking through limiting beliefs and decisions that I've made? And it's through these conversations, which is why I love podcasting, that my perspectives broaden. And then I look at what successful men have been able to accomplish and what it's taken them to get there.

00:05:25:03 - 00:05:46:26
Lisa Chastain
And I realize this is nothing compared to what other people are dealing with on the planet when it comes to finances, so keeping perspective helps me. But what I'm dealing with is driving to work in the mornings, crying, asking, God, am I really doing the right thing? Because what I've invested in has not worked out, or it's taking a hell of a lot longer than I thought it would.

00:05:46:28 - 00:06:11:05
Lisa Chastain
Right. All the things. Those are the things that barely anybody in my life hears or knows, because I'm very busy helping other people and very busy having conversations about success. But I've got a really stripped down, which I love. The framework of your podcast, stripped down and get real and honest and say, this is really hard and it's not perfect, and it can be very ugly and it can be filled with self-doubt.

00:06:11:08 - 00:06:15:18
Lisa Chastain
And I'm here to have that conversation all day long.

00:06:15:21 - 00:06:38:19
Lisa Carpenter
I love your honesty. If we're just going to go so deep today, because that's really what it looks like behind the scenes. And so often I think people look at successful. The successful version of us, but they don't see that what's going on behind the scenes and how much self leadership and self-management and commitment and responsibility to your own growth takes day in and day out.

00:06:38:20 - 00:06:59:01
Lisa Carpenter
Like this. Work is not for the faint of heart. It is ugly when you have to get real, raw and honest with yourself. It's one thing to get honest with somebody else, but the hardest work is getting honest with yourself. So let's talk a little bit about success. Because I love how when I ask people, how did you define success?

00:06:59:01 - 00:07:11:19
Lisa Carpenter
So when you were a little girl living on the dirt roads in Vegas, I can't even imagine it back then. What did success look like to you, like when you dreamed about being a successful woman? What was that vision?

00:07:11:22 - 00:07:32:18
Lisa Chastain
I have to start bringing this pamphlet to interviews with me because I have a pamphlet. I was student body president in my high school. I was freshman class president, sophomore class president, junior class president, student body president. And I had these really big dreams to go to go away to college, which is typical. And my family was like, no, you're you're not doing that.

00:07:32:20 - 00:07:52:15
Lisa Chastain
You're going to stay home for college. This is all that we can afford. So basically we here you, we see you, you know, you have dreams. But now that's not going to happen. But the pamphlet that I put together in my senior year, like English class or something about the the version of success that I had imagined for myself at that time was that I was going to be married with four kids.

00:07:52:18 - 00:07:53:21
Lisa Carpenter
Interesting.

00:07:53:24 - 00:08:06:17
Lisa Chastain
My mom is a stay at home mom. My grandma had four kids. My family was super close, tight knit family, and as a woman, that was my idea of success. That was my version of success at the time.

00:08:06:19 - 00:08:24:11
Lisa Carpenter
Wow. When did that shift for you? So what had to happen in your life for you to go like, there's more here for me and there's nothing wrong if that like there are some women that that is genuinely how they define success and kudos to them. And there are so many more women who are like, that doesn't feel like it's enough for me.

00:08:24:11 - 00:08:34:24
Lisa Carpenter
So what happened in your life that created that shift, or opens you up to seeing that there was more possible or available to you beyond the, frame of reality that you were living in?

00:08:34:27 - 00:08:38:10
Lisa Chastain
Well, it started with a big fat awakening that I'm not happy.

00:08:38:13 - 00:08:42:29
Lisa Carpenter
Yeah, it always starts with a big fat awakening, right? I have a stick that the universe swings.

00:08:43:07 - 00:09:11:10
Lisa Chastain
I'm not happy. I'm actually pretty miserable right now. I don't exactly know why, but whatever, whatever is happening in my household right now, I'm not happy. And I write. I write about this in my book because I was a good girl. I did what good girls do. I got a degree. I got a job. I had 401 K health insurance, bought a house at 24, got married at 25, had my kid at 28.

00:09:11:13 - 00:09:21:24
Lisa Chastain
I was on the up and up in my 20s. I was working 60 hours a week, grinding. But living the dream. The American dream. I know you're Canadian, but.

00:09:21:27 - 00:09:22:04
Lisa Carpenter
I get.

00:09:22:05 - 00:09:23:01
Lisa Chastain
American Dream.

00:09:23:03 - 00:09:23:24
Lisa Carpenter
Yeah.

00:09:23:26 - 00:09:35:26
Lisa Chastain
And all I was seeking was my parents approval. My dad never made more than $60,000 a year. So at the age of 31, I'm making 54 or something like that. I'm like, I made it.

00:09:35:28 - 00:09:36:20
Lisa Carpenter
You're winning.

00:09:36:25 - 00:09:55:00
Lisa Chastain
I'm winning. And then I did. What good girls do in America is I had a kid. My husband was working 80 hours a week in the restaurant industry, burnt, and I was burning out. And I said, well, I'll leave, I'll leave. I'll stay home and take care of my kid because that's what I'm supposed to do. That's what women do.

00:09:55:00 - 00:10:16:03
Lisa Chastain
My husband has more earning potential than I do. I think of all the limiting beliefs that are going on right now in my head. Right. We've got some security. I've got $100,000 in my four and one K. He's got health insurance. Save save save save save save save. Everything's safe. I laughed, and nine months later, my husband lost his job.

00:10:16:05 - 00:10:37:23
Lisa Chastain
And like before my eyes, within a matter of years, everything was gone. For the most part, I was holding things together because I was pretty savvy. I knew how to budget. I knew how to pay bills and rob Peter to pay Paul. I had nearly drained my 401 K trying to start my business as a financial advisor. But to your question, what was it?

00:10:37:26 - 00:10:56:19
Lisa Chastain
I got an email from Farmers Insurance because I was like, I got to go back to work. My ex-husband, now ex-husband, isn't making this happen. He's an addiction. It's chaos behind the scenes at my house and on the outside. I still have this front of. I've got it all together. Who can relate to that?

00:10:56:21 - 00:11:15:28
Lisa Carpenter
Yeah, I know, I understand the addiction piece. Well, I understand the ticking, all the boxes. I mean, that's such a pattern. Of all my clients right there sold this version of success. If you just tick the boxes, there's going to be the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, only to be there and be like, wow, this is not what I thought it was going to be.

00:11:16:00 - 00:11:20:27
Lisa Carpenter
And that's when all those feelings of like, what now? What next? Who am I?

00:11:20:28 - 00:11:21:08
Lisa Chastain
Yeah.

00:11:21:13 - 00:11:22:20
Lisa Carpenter
And where do I start? It's like.

00:11:22:24 - 00:11:32:15
Lisa Chastain
I got to go back to work. My husband is pointing his finger at me that I'm not working because I didn't realize how much my income was holding the household together until it was gone.

00:11:32:17 - 00:11:33:12
Lisa Carpenter
Wow.

00:11:33:15 - 00:12:01:28
Lisa Chastain
And it was like $3,500 a month. But, you know, ten years ago it was paying the mortgage and all the things that's gone that stripped away, it starts to expose him. And we're both looking at each other like, it's your problem, you're the problem. But it was when I went through a transformational development, personal development seminar, and I had to look in the mirror of what I've created in my life and all the beliefs and stories that I was telling myself that I said, there's something more for me in this world.

00:12:02:00 - 00:12:04:09
Lisa Chastain
And now I get to go figure out what it is.

00:12:04:11 - 00:12:31:28
Lisa Carpenter
I love those wake up calls. They're like, fuck you and thank you moments. Totally. Right? And that's what they are. And my big wake up call came when I found out that my partner was in active addiction as well and realizing, like, what is my role? And responsibility in this? So instead of being a victim of my circumstances, really looking at like what made me a match for this, which is not that's not usually the question people ask themselves, right?

00:12:31:28 - 00:12:51:18
Lisa Carpenter
They point blame, but that's who I am, right? Like, and that started me on this like deep dive. And my relationship with money was a big part of that, because I realized that I'd been an entrepreneur for many years, worked all the hours, did all the things. But I was never going to allow myself to thrive because I didn't actually believe it.

00:12:51:20 - 00:13:04:29
Lisa Carpenter
And then when we think about money and stories around money and women, and for me in particular, it was always the belief that men knew better. Men were better money managers. I wasn't good at math. I'm sure you've heard that one right.

00:13:04:29 - 00:13:05:21
Lisa Chastain
Like, yeah.

00:13:05:23 - 00:13:24:13
Lisa Carpenter
I was even with my business coach this morning and she was giving me new spreadsheets and I'm like, I don't know if I'm ready for this level of advanced coaching yet, but all these stories about money that I had to also work through, that I was never going to allow myself to step into what I consider to be success.

00:13:24:13 - 00:13:40:19
Lisa Carpenter
And I was measuring success a lot on the bank account balance. Like, if you ask me, what used to be my definition of success, but there was no way I was ever going to give that to myself, because there was no way I was going to ever allow myself to receive that amount of money, even though that's what I said I wanted.

00:13:40:22 - 00:14:09:19
Lisa Carpenter
So this brings me to a question around controlling money versus feeling safe with money. Because this was a big part of my path, is recognizing I was never going to allow money in because I didn't trust myself or feel safe with money. And the truth is I was kind of running the Disney Princess story. That if I had my own money who was going to take care of me, I wouldn't need to be taken care of.

00:14:09:21 - 00:14:11:19
Lisa Chastain
It's all socialization right there.

00:14:11:22 - 00:14:32:28
Lisa Carpenter
Fascinating stuff. So I'd love to hear about your like how you started to work through because you're now wanting to be a financial advisor. Yeah. And you're realizing or maybe I know a few things about money and maybe there's a lot of shit that I don't know about myself. So walk me through that story. Control and and controlling money versus feeling safe with money.

00:14:33:00 - 00:14:33:22
Lisa Carpenter
Well.

00:14:33:24 - 00:14:44:07
Lisa Chastain
The first thing is so just from my perspective is, is, coach and all the work that I do now is that safety does not correlate to a number.

00:14:44:09 - 00:15:01:19
Lisa Chastain
And we think that if we have a number it's going to make us feel safe. And that can be quite the opposite experience because we attach to a number. And what that means $1 million business that somehow means something. And it really doesn't mean a whole lot at all.

00:15:01:22 - 00:15:01:29
Lisa Carpenter
No.

00:15:02:02 - 00:15:35:03
Lisa Chastain
So we have to we have to totally take out the fact that safety is an inside nervous system job, and that safety is in our womb space and our root chakra, and that safety comes from attracting safe people, and choosing safe environments. Control comes from distrust and dis ease, and we learn so much of how to be in relationship with ourselves and others from childhood.

00:15:35:05 - 00:15:36:03
Lisa Carpenter
Yeah.

00:15:36:05 - 00:15:39:03
Lisa Chastain
And it's yeah, it's a it's a journey.

00:15:39:08 - 00:15:58:16
Lisa Carpenter
Absolutely. Because even when we talk about safe environments, most of us don't realize that we don't we haven't created a safe environment within ourselves. So we're seeking that safety in other things or circumstances, right. Like the number in the bank account. But it's never going to give you that feeling of safety because it's an inside job. Yeah.

00:15:58:16 - 00:16:12:28
Lisa Chastain
And what does safety mean if your nervous system is hard wired to all kinds of chaos is a child, it's not until you go back and heal that that you'll have the ability to feel safe in your own body.

00:16:13:00 - 00:16:39:04
Lisa Chastain
And then with with money money will either it's going to amplify who you already are. I've got a great podcast episode with Tony Robbins, former CFO, and he talks about his life with Tony Robbins and also with other and super successful ventures where he had millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars at his fingertips. And all it did for him was amplify the unworthy conversation.

00:16:39:06 - 00:17:00:16
Lisa Chastain
So whatever beliefs you have about yourself, you put money on top of that like a hot sauce, and it's going to amplify who you are. For me, it was a come to Jesus moment, literally. There were so many things that weren't working in my life. I had joined this financial firm. I was taking money out of my 401 K to support that, because I knew I wanted to be a business owner.

00:17:00:16 - 00:17:31:15
Lisa Chastain
I knew I didn't want to be an employee ever again. So there's the risk, right? I have a high risk tolerance and I joined this firm. And the other thing about the finance industry that I find very interesting and telling is that if you don't have money in the finance industry and if you don't come from money in the finance industry, it is triple, quadruple, ten times harder for you to make your way into that industry because it's a who knows who industry.

00:17:31:17 - 00:17:56:17
Lisa Chastain
And the first piece of advice they gave me was go talk to your family and have them invest with you. Have them manage, go manage their portfolios. My family didn't have any money and the ones that did weren't going to trust me with it. Little Lisa from down the street, it wasn't going to happen. So and I have been coaching and mentoring financial advisors over the last decade, and these conversations come to full circle.

00:17:56:17 - 00:18:15:09
Lisa Chastain
If you're out there trying to get financial advice and you yourself don't feel worthy, you're in trouble. Absolutely. And I was I was in trouble. I was in trouble. I was, you know, trying to rely on my husband to make things happen. He wasn't I was pulling money out of savings. And I got to a point in my business where I said, if I don't do something and smart enough to know that if I don't do something, I'm not making any money.

00:18:15:12 - 00:18:26:29
Lisa Chastain
I'm not going to have any money. My husband's not going to have any money. We're going to lose everything. I saw that coming and I had to make a change. So I hired a coach.

00:18:27:01 - 00:18:35:08
Lisa Carpenter
Was that the hardest thing you've ever had to admit to yourself? I mean, I know that well. Has many things I was going to say. That must have been the hardest truth to come to.

00:18:35:10 - 00:18:38:03
Lisa Chastain
Yeah, that whole experience of me.

00:18:38:06 - 00:18:38:22
Lisa Carpenter
My mom.

00:18:38:22 - 00:18:58:04
Lisa Chastain
My mom would tell me, just stick with just stick with it, Lisa. Stick through it. Thinking about generational patterns when it comes to money. She didn't work. I don't know exactly what she had to endure with my dad. He's a lovely gentleman, and there was a lot of chaos and a lot of drugs and a lot of partying, or in my household growing up, and so just stick through.

00:18:58:04 - 00:19:08:12
Lisa Chastain
It was the context from which my mom operated. It'll get better. And I was like, I just cannot see myself doing this, that the rest of my codependent crazies.

00:19:08:12 - 00:19:29:24
Lisa Carpenter
That gets passed down from generation to generation. And even if your parents were in addiction. So that wasn't for my parents. Neither of them were in an addiction, but they grew up in homes where there was active addiction. Like, I could go back in the lineage now and I'm like, oh 000. So everybody learns how to cope and these coping behaviors get paid for it and paid for it.

00:19:29:26 - 00:19:56:28
Lisa Carpenter
And, you know, one of the hardest truths for most people to admit is that they are the problem. Yeah, right. But you're also the solution. And to me, that's so empowering, right? Like you're the problem. Oh, like when I realized that I was like, oh no, this is not good. It's so much easier to blame other people. But also knowing I have the power to step into something different and create a whole different future for myself.

00:19:57:00 - 00:20:19:17
Lisa Carpenter
Yeah. What? I talk a lot about is the level of personal responsibility that that comes with, because it is really recognizing it's very cliche, but nobody's coming to save you doesn't mean you can't ask for help, right? Like you hired a coach. I hired coaches, but only you can do the work. Only I can do the work. And that's where the well, that's where the power lies.

00:20:19:17 - 00:20:45:20
Lisa Carpenter
So, I knew this conversation was going to be. I knew this conversation was going to be so good. Any time I get to talk about addiction and how that plays a role, because most people don't really recognize that there are these threads running through their life, and especially ambitious, driven achievers. They wear that like a badge of honor, not even recognizing that that comes from a deep, deep wounds.

00:20:45:20 - 00:21:04:12
Lisa Carpenter
Right? Like we're celebrated for it. And I often say like the active, the active addict, just one side of the coin and the high achiever who's who's doing all these amazing things out in the world. It's the same coin. It's just the other side. One side is celebrated and the other side like, we don't want to talk about that, but it's the same thing.

00:21:04:12 - 00:21:27:18
Lisa Carpenter
It's the same thing. So all right, so let's talk about financial shame because show me a woman who doesn't have I had so much shame. I mean, I was buried under debt for years. Felt like I wasn't good enough. Thought, you know, like I said, I thought my partner was better than me in terms of money. It turned out he was not.

00:21:27:21 - 00:21:47:13
Lisa Carpenter
And, you know, when I really let go of that shame. The shame about my debt. Shame about all the money stuff I was carrying. So much shifted for me. So I'd love to hear how financial shame really keeps successful women from feeling successful. We're we're. Yeah, I.

00:21:47:20 - 00:21:49:17
Lisa Chastain
I don't know.

00:21:49:19 - 00:21:50:07
Lisa Carpenter
Okay.

00:21:50:10 - 00:22:13:29
Lisa Chastain
How do I frame this? I've been in lots of rooms. I've spoken to thousands and thousands and thousands of people on this exact topic. And there are very few, very, very few women who have not had the experience of being shamed or guilted financially. Where does that come from? It comes from our generational history and patterns of ownership for women.

00:22:14:01 - 00:22:38:05
Lisa Chastain
It wasn't until not even 100 years ago where women were able to own money and own their own accounts and own real estate in the United States. And when you look at what's happening all over the world, women still don't own the majority of the wealth on the planet. So we are shamed because it's our decisions that are not our own.

00:22:38:11 - 00:23:00:21
Lisa Chastain
We get to spend the money. 85% of the world's wealth is spent by women. We get to spend the money, but we don't own the money. And that right there is inherent shame because it's someone else's money. And then you make a decision that doesn't please someone a parent, a friend, a husband, significant other, and then that shame spiral just gets worse and worse and worse.

00:23:00:23 - 00:23:24:19
Lisa Chastain
Women have had the we've had the short end of the stick financially forever. And so we can't if we can't learn how to make our own decisions like men have. Men have been messing up the world of money since the beginning of time. They've been making mistakes. They've been having compacts in so many ways. They're championed for it, and women just don't have the same experience.

00:23:24:19 - 00:23:43:03
Lisa Chastain
So it comes from some deeply, deeply rooted conversations when it comes to ownership and decision making. When I talk about budgeting, which my book says, stop budgeting is budgeting is a construct to control us and to make us feel ashamed of the choices that we're making so that we can still be controlled.

00:23:43:06 - 00:23:53:13
Lisa Carpenter
Wow. That's powerful. So talk to me about how did you work yourself out of your own money? Shame, so that you can guide other people to work through their shame?

00:23:53:15 - 00:23:56:23
Lisa Chastain
Yeah, I had to hear my not enough conversation.

00:23:56:26 - 00:23:58:22
Lisa Carpenter
And what did that look like for you, Lisa?

00:23:58:23 - 00:24:00:11
Lisa Chastain
Oh, man. Lots of work.

00:24:00:14 - 00:24:03:23
Lisa Carpenter
So I can. I can tell you mine, but I'd love to hear yours.

00:24:03:27 - 00:24:27:10
Lisa Chastain
Lots and lots and lots of work. Lots of looking in the mirror and lots of breakdown. Through my divorce, which was the most shameful experience for me. Not financially, but because divorce just doesn't happen in my family. So I felt like a failure. I just felt like I was giving up. I turned myself inside out, went through all the seminars, did all the things to try to fix my marriage, and it wasn't working and I was just more unhappy.

00:24:27:10 - 00:24:58:21
Lisa Chastain
And then it was even more glaring, like how many problems my ex-husband had that I couldn't fix. That was shame. I couldn't heal him, I couldn't fix him, I couldn't help him. And I'm a perpetual fixer. I like to fix people. I do that, I don't do it anymore. But I did it a lot. And so it was through my own personal development journey, coupled by my divorce, coupled by right after my divorce, a very public and shameful rebound relationship with a drug addict and felon.

00:24:58:23 - 00:25:03:11
Lisa Chastain
I bounced right into out of one toxic situation and into another.

00:25:03:18 - 00:25:04:15
Lisa Carpenter
What we do.

00:25:04:17 - 00:25:06:02
Lisa Chastain
Which happens. That's right.

00:25:06:02 - 00:25:07:13
Lisa Carpenter
That's what we do.

00:25:07:16 - 00:25:18:07
Lisa Chastain
And it was it was God. And I do believe this. I do know this. It was God. Just like getting me so on my knees to say, can you hear me now?

00:25:18:09 - 00:25:18:27
Lisa Carpenter
Yeah.

00:25:18:29 - 00:25:29:14
Lisa Chastain
Is it painful enough that you're actually going to listen and realize that none of this is going to make you worthy because you already are.

00:25:29:17 - 00:25:51:08
Lisa Carpenter
And that's the conversation. I don't think enough people are having the worthiness because I think in my work as well. Right. Like if we follow the thread back, it comes back to the worthiness. And listen, we do not pop out of our mothers wombs and suddenly have to earn our right to be on this planet, right? We're loved as we are, so we learn that we're not good enough, whether it's looking to our left and our right or whatever.

00:25:51:08 - 00:26:15:22
Lisa Carpenter
But you know, what I tell my clients is like that the good enough, the worthiness fairy is not going to show up at your doorstep, ring your doorbell and be like, today is the day you are enough. For me, it was something I had to choose it. Like I had to stop tolerating the part of me that wanted to keep me, you know, for lack of a better term, small, that wanted me to not be worthy enough.

00:26:15:22 - 00:26:39:01
Lisa Carpenter
Because and I love that part of me. Like I look at that part of me with love because it was really trying to keep me safe. Because we're always fighting for love, safety and belonging, right? Like it really was doing its job in the best way. It knew how. But there came a point in time where I, the grown up, grown ass woman Lisa, needed to show up and say, we're not going to do this anymore.

00:26:39:01 - 00:27:01:07
Lisa Carpenter
Like, thank you so much for being there and protecting me. But I can no longer tolerate this behavior in you because I go sit at these amazing tables with these amazing women. And then 24 hours later, I'd be crying on my bed like, what was I doing there? I don't fit it. Instead of just claiming who I am and I had to work at that every single day.

00:27:01:07 - 00:27:26:14
Lisa Carpenter
No different than our money stuff, right? It's not a one and done. It was every time that voice came up having the courage to say, stop it, Lisa, we're not doing this anymore because just like with money, things we get into habits or money behaviors are habits. Our thoughts become habits. How we treat ourself becomes habits, and it takes work and commitment and responsibility.

00:27:26:14 - 00:27:45:18
Lisa Carpenter
My favorite word coming back to that to to weave our way out. So it's just it's such a fascinating process. So here you are on your knees. You've gone back into another addictive relationship because that's what that's what we do, right? We attract what we're we attract who we are. That's the reality. You don't have an addict without a codependent.

00:27:45:18 - 00:27:56:23
Lisa Carpenter
And if you're codependent, you got lots of deep wounds to heal. We love our codependency. What happened next? Like, how did you build the success that you've created today? How did you pull yourself.

00:27:56:23 - 00:27:59:05
Lisa Chastain
To that I redefine success.

00:27:59:07 - 00:28:01:05
Lisa Carpenter
Tell me about that. Well.

00:28:01:07 - 00:28:23:29
Lisa Chastain
One of the most damaging conversations in personal finance for women, specifically, is this whole notion that if you have debt, you should be ashamed of the fact that you have debt. And what it really comes down to is that come from of the purpose of the debt. Because empires have been built using leverage as a tool to get their.

00:28:24:02 - 00:28:51:04
Lisa Chastain
Grant Cardone, who's one of the most successful real estate moguls of all time, is talking on a podcast about at one point he had $1 billion in debt. $1 billion in debt. And it's championed for men to take on risk. And then if they aren't successful, whatever, right. File bankruptcy, move on. And that's more of an entrepreneurial mindset.

00:28:51:04 - 00:29:11:10
Lisa Chastain
You hear a lot of entrepreneurs talk about how they've had to declare bankruptcy because of risks they've taken. Dave Ramsey declared bankruptcy before he became a successful personal financial guy. Story after story after story. A story of people and men taking on debt, taking a risk and becoming successful. That's not the same conversation for women.

00:29:11:13 - 00:29:13:25
Lisa Carpenter
Oh God no.

00:29:13:27 - 00:29:28:16
Lisa Chastain
And so the women that come to me, they have $5,000 in debt, and they feel like they're the worst human on the planet. We've got to interrupt that conversation altogether. And especially for women who are going through divorce, do whatever it takes to get the fuck out.

00:29:28:18 - 00:29:47:05
Lisa Carpenter
Oh my God, I'm going to send this to my best friend who's going through divorce. Okay? This debt, this debt conversation is really good and it's very, very timely. So I used to carry a lot of debt. Yeah. And because I was determined I was going to build my business, right. I was and bank on myself. Now, I probably could have bought a small town in Canada for the amount of interest I paid.

00:29:47:05 - 00:30:02:12
Lisa Carpenter
Not proud of that part, sure, but that was part of the journey. But I did have to come to a place of learning to love the debt for all the things that gave me. It allowed me to leave my marriage. It allowed me to build my business, do things I'm quite high risk tolerance, and I'm like, that's not always a good thing, Lisa.

00:30:02:12 - 00:30:22:04
Lisa Carpenter
But here we are anyways. Fast forward, I have no debt now in my life at all. Like at all, which I'm really proud of. But now I've attached myself to that story of you have no debt, so the thought of having to go into debt if I need to bump up my business is like, it's like choking me.

00:30:22:06 - 00:30:25:28
Lisa Carpenter
It's like this ego thing of like. But I like not having any debt and I love.

00:30:25:28 - 00:30:26:06
Lisa Chastain
Having an.

00:30:26:06 - 00:30:51:16
Lisa Carpenter
Identity around it. Yes, I like how you've reframed it, that, men really learn how to use debt to leverage what it is they want. And for me, that debt still holds the residual, nervous system memory, we're going to call it, of the anxiety that it caused me for so many years. So the thought of, like, even any debt now is like, I don't I don't want that.

00:30:51:18 - 00:30:58:01
Lisa Carpenter
I don't want that. Lisa. So how do you teach people to come back to center to be neutral both ways?

00:30:58:03 - 00:31:00:21
Lisa Chastain
Well, what's the purpose of the debt is the first question.

00:31:00:24 - 00:31:09:29
Lisa Carpenter
Well, it would it would be around like, you know, if my business needs an influx of cash for like the retreat that I'm running that I've got to put money out for before I've sold it.

00:31:10:01 - 00:31:12:04
Lisa Chastain
I mean, this is this is how businesses operate these.

00:31:12:04 - 00:31:12:18
Lisa Carpenter
Days, right?

00:31:12:24 - 00:31:38:03
Lisa Chastain
You know, if you need working capital because of that and because receivables, there's certain companies that don't get paid six months later, but they still have to run their businesses. So this is okay. We could go down a whole wormhole on this. But here's the thing. The unworthy, unworthy Lisa, Lisa Chastain, the unworthy Lisa went into a ton of credit card debt to fill a void that was not sellable by stuff.

00:31:38:05 - 00:32:01:19
Lisa Chastain
I went to college, and I realized I walked into my first day at college, and I had on a Abercrombie and Fitch shirt that I got at the thrift store, but it was still name brand. And then I look around and I see all these quote unquote rich girls, which I did not identify with. Boom. There's my unworthiness conversation full tilt in my face.

00:32:01:21 - 00:32:26:19
Lisa Chastain
So what did I do? I got a credit card. I went to the mall. I bought name brand clothes because I didn't feel worthy. It's not the debt that is the problem. It's the reason and the purpose for the debt in the first place. And when we can reframe that, I think that we can have a whole conversation about how we use money to leverage life in business strategically.

00:32:26:21 - 00:32:46:19
Lisa Chastain
I'm not saying for any of the listeners, I'm not saying go, go into go, go get a ton of debt. Right. What I'm saying is, what's the purpose of it? And if it can help you scale faster, why wouldn't you do that? It all comes back to fear, I think. Fear and distrust and dis ease because then we have to pay somebody.

00:32:46:19 - 00:32:49:14
Lisa Chastain
But you have to pay people anyway, right?

00:32:49:16 - 00:33:13:10
Lisa Carpenter
What? I love what you're saying, and I'm noticing in myself is, Lisa, you're trying to make this decision based on a past version of you at the past version of me. Doesn't even exist yet. Not being fully embodied in, like, what's my next level of CEO money boss like, because I've got this place and this feels good, and I'm being called into challenging that now for how much I can grow.

00:33:13:10 - 00:33:18:12
Lisa Carpenter
And, you know, the funny thing is, is I've got all the evidence that when I bet on myself, it always works out.

00:33:18:12 - 00:33:19:12
Lisa Chastain
Like how.

00:33:19:12 - 00:33:32:20
Lisa Carpenter
I became completely debt free was it was kind of a fluke. Anyways, I won't get into it, but it always works out. But it just it's so interesting how those threads come back and I know they don't show up for men the same as they do for women.

00:33:32:20 - 00:33:57:12
Lisa Chastain
They don't. They absolutely don't. They don't. Because men haven't been wired in the same way as women connecting their personal finances to their identity and success. It's connected to other things. And, and generationally for different purposes. We have a president of the United States who has declared bankruptcy six times. And when I throw that out on the social media, people are like, yeah, but that's in his business, okay?

00:33:57:12 - 00:34:12:24
Lisa Chastain
But it's all connected to him. Yeah, but all these excuses why that's okay. But you throw the same scenario out for a woman and she's going to get trashed on social media for her irresponsible decisions. It's just crazy how different were treated.

00:34:13:01 - 00:34:37:12
Lisa Carpenter
And I've had clients that I've supported walking them into bankruptcy because it was the smartest financial decision they could ever make. But the decision to get there is the most painful thing to witness, because it is all the stories and the identity that they have that, you know, I feel like women make it into this big thing about who they are instead of, this is a problem over here, I'm over here.

00:34:37:12 - 00:34:44:02
Lisa Carpenter
These two things are separate. How do I want to handle said problem that is going to benefit my highest and greatest good?

00:34:44:05 - 00:35:06:26
Lisa Chastain
That's right. It's a learning opportunity. That's it. It's a fresh start. It's a way to start over. You can hit the reset button. You learned what you had to learn. But here's the other thing, Lisa. When you look at how businesses are born, almost always they're born from other people's money. Yeah. So if you look at how, you know how successful companies start, they're taking loans from the government.

00:35:06:28 - 00:35:32:22
Lisa Chastain
Their seed round of funding, their investors coming in and infusing cash. Their family might give them a loan to get it started. You name it. The grants. It's almost always other people's money. So whether it's a credit card or a business loan or the SBA or an investor, it's still someone else's money that's helping you move forward. And we all need a leg up.

00:35:32:24 - 00:35:43:00
Lisa Carpenter
Do you think that's true for women? Because I know a lot of women who literally bootstrap their way, borrowing no money from anybody. I mean, I guess they would use credit card. So it's still somebody else's money, but.

00:35:43:00 - 00:35:44:04
Lisa Chastain
Still somebody else's money.

00:35:44:04 - 00:35:47:04
Lisa Carpenter
Women really do not like to ask for help.

00:35:47:07 - 00:35:49:03
Lisa Chastain
No, that goes back to shame.

00:35:49:05 - 00:35:50:11
Lisa Carpenter
Right? We know that.

00:35:50:11 - 00:35:57:18
Lisa Chastain
It's back to shame. So and 3% of venture capital is given to women. It's still a good old boy. Good old boys club.

00:35:57:21 - 00:35:58:09
Lisa Carpenter
Right?

00:35:58:10 - 00:36:08:14
Lisa Chastain
We have to justify ourselves and explain ourselves in different ways. So I would I would rather self-fund so I don't have to deal with any of that bullshit that I've literally been dealing with my entire life now.

00:36:08:16 - 00:36:20:02
Lisa Carpenter
So what belief do you think about success or money needs to die? Needs to die within women in order for them to redefine success and wealth?

00:36:20:04 - 00:36:21:23
Lisa Chastain
Stop budgeting.

00:36:21:26 - 00:36:26:10
Lisa Carpenter
Oh, okay. So talk to me more about this because this is what your book is about.

00:36:26:12 - 00:36:51:28
Lisa Chastain
Stop believing that the budget is the answer to your problems. Stop believing that if you don't have a budget, you're irresponsible. Stop believing that this is the thing that's going to fix your marriage. Because every personal financial expert that I have ever read or listen to says you have to have a budget. And the wealthiest people on the planet and the wealthiest people that I know.

00:36:52:05 - 00:36:56:13
Lisa Chastain
Sidebar Lisa, after a podcast episode and say, I don't budget either.

00:36:56:15 - 00:36:58:15
Lisa Carpenter
I don't budget, I've never budgeted.

00:36:58:20 - 00:37:19:09
Lisa Chastain
It has nothing to do with a budget. It's bullshit. It's your mindset that's going to get you where you need to go. It's elevating your mindset, looking at the things from your past you need to heal and then model and mirror successful people. Learn how to take bigger, smarter risks. Learn how to fail forward. You're going to fail.

00:37:19:11 - 00:37:19:23
Lisa Carpenter
Okay?

00:37:19:23 - 00:37:21:08
Lisa Chastain
You're going to.

00:37:21:11 - 00:37:39:18
Lisa Carpenter
I look at everything as choice. So for a long time in my career, I worked with women specifically around nutrition, losing weight. Right. And and I always have looked at food as it's a choice, like there's no budget here, there's no diet at any point in time, you can choose to do something. You can choose to eat this.

00:37:39:18 - 00:37:56:10
Lisa Carpenter
You can choose to eat that. And the question always comes down to me, does does this choice allow, align with my highest values? Does this choice align with the goals that I've set to myself, set for myself? Yes or no. And then choose. And sometimes I'm going to make a choice that doesn't align with the goals that I want.

00:37:56:12 - 00:38:17:00
Lisa Carpenter
But I really wanted to buy that new pair of shoes and that's okay. But it's like letting it go and moving on. Same thing. You eat the cookie like you haven't actually ruined anything. But if you ruminate over it and you make it mean something, that's where we run into to problems and it ends. And as you said, it is so much about trying to control.

00:38:17:03 - 00:38:31:02
Lisa Chastain
Control because we don't feel safe or control because we don't trust or we think that it's control, self-control, budgeting that's going to get us the result. And it's quite the opposite.

00:38:31:04 - 00:38:43:23
Lisa Carpenter
It is the opposite, right. Because control is such a it's it's such an illusion. Right. And the more we try and control the less the less safe we feel. And around and around and around we go.

00:38:43:26 - 00:38:47:21
Lisa Chastain
It's the illusion that we think we can control anything. We have no control.

00:38:47:24 - 00:38:48:24
Lisa Carpenter
We have no control.

00:38:48:24 - 00:38:51:09
Lisa Chastain
We have no control.

00:38:51:11 - 00:39:12:23
Lisa Carpenter
I have learned that over and over usually the hard way. Oh you know people think surrender is this like passive thing. I'm like, no, no, no. Surrender is literally the most active, like handing it over process and and coming back to that place of trust. So speaking of trust, a big part of my journey around money was I realized, like as I said, I wanted more money to come in.

00:39:12:23 - 00:39:28:15
Lisa Carpenter
And then I also realized I didn't trust myself. As more money started coming into my business, it actually created anxiety for me because I'm like, I don't know how to manage be with my money. I want it to hang out with me, but I don't feel safe with it. And I don't think it feels safe with with me.

00:39:28:22 - 00:39:53:06
Lisa Carpenter
So there were things that I did in my own business, but I would love to hear from you about how you build safety, how you teach your clients, and how you did for yourself to create safety with money. Whether you know mindset practices for themselves, or whether it's actually strategic things to do with their money to build that muscle of self-trust around finance,

00:39:53:09 - 00:40:20:14
Lisa Chastain
The very, the very first thing is I teach my clients how to look at their numbers. Out of that emotional conversation of these numbers on a paper or just telling a story. And we need to figure out what that story is. Data. It's data. It's data telling us. And and then the trust is that the problem, the reason that and I don't know, the statistic for Canada, but the reason that.

00:40:20:14 - 00:40:21:12
Lisa Carpenter
Most.

00:40:21:12 - 00:40:45:23
Lisa Chastain
People, over 60% of Americans are still living paycheck to paycheck is that they are looking at their bank account and typically banking out of one account to understand and know what's actually happening in their financial life on any given day. And if you are used to seeing this up and down all day long, those downs are going to trigger you.

00:40:45:25 - 00:41:06:11
Lisa Chastain
The highs are going to feel really good, and then you're going to judge yourself when you're down versus up all the things. That's the emotional roller coaster. So when you look at, you can look at your money. The very first place to build trust is to trust that it'll be there when you need it. And you know, you need a framework to see that and to know that outside of the emotion.

00:41:06:13 - 00:41:27:21
Lisa Chastain
First of all. So financial forecasting is a is a tool. And it's something that I teach my clients very basic very easy to do that can give you proof collecting evidence. You have to collect evidence that you're going to have money when you need it. Not from a seven year old kid who didn't have food when they needed it or.

00:41:27:23 - 00:41:33:10
Lisa Chastain
Yeah, so what's the what's the belief versus the fact we have to look at the facts first.

00:41:33:12 - 00:42:03:21
Lisa Carpenter
This is really powerful because, you know, for anybody who's been listening to the podcast for a while in 2023, literally a grenade went off in my life. And one of the things there's many things that I'm very proud of during that the past couple of years. But the thing that I am most proud of is I over the years, because I worked on my money, I had a sightline on my business, I had a sight line on my revenue, and I knew that I was going to be okay even if I stopped work for 2 or 3 months and I traveled, I spent the whole year traveling.

00:42:03:21 - 00:42:32:23
Lisa Carpenter
I still saw my clients and to to to know that I gave that to myself. I built that, and it was wildly uncomfortable when I started, forecasting my money like it required spreadsheets. Yeah, formulas. Like stuff that was really outside of my comfort zone. But I'm so glad that I put in the work to create that, because nothing feels better than knowing you've created that safety for yourself.

00:42:32:23 - 00:42:45:04
Lisa Carpenter
And the safety wasn't about the dollar amount, it was. It was knowing, like, I'm okay, I'm I'm okay. So I think that's such a powerful exercise for all women. And this is part of what you teach it.

00:42:45:04 - 00:43:05:06
Lisa Chastain
Is it is it's what I teach. And let me, let me teach you how to look at your money, to answer the questions and then to process through and talk through what what happens if you don't? But for most people, you do. You just are. You're riddled by fear that you won't. And you let that be the conversation driving the bus financially.

00:43:05:09 - 00:43:23:27
Lisa Chastain
So we do that first, and then I do a lot of nervous system work with one of my partners. And and we have I have a women's retreat and I just teach clients how to clearly, clearly define what success means to them, specifically, not according to society or to your parents or to anybody else in your life.

00:43:23:27 - 00:43:34:10
Lisa Chastain
And when we can get clear and define on what success really looks like and feels like, most people come to the realization that they don't need as much money as I thought they did to see what I realized.

00:43:34:12 - 00:43:49:20
Lisa Carpenter
And that's what I realized. You know, like I had a coach say to me once, you know, like you could have $1 million or $1 million business, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. And I was like, what? So now I've learned how to my money can make money for me, which is super fun. The stock market is all over the place, but super fun.

00:43:49:20 - 00:44:07:08
Lisa Carpenter
Like, oh, I made money today and I did nothing and I didn't have to like, show my worthiness to have that money land in my bank account. So you really brought a beautiful segue into success. So how does Lisa Chastain today define success.

00:44:07:11 - 00:44:27:29
Lisa Chastain
As I live today in this moment, I have an amazing partner in my husband. My kids are healthy. I have a healed relationship with my parents. I get to work with people that I absolutely love, working toward dreams that I have, making a difference for people I wake up every single day feeling successful because of that.

00:44:28:01 - 00:44:48:27
Lisa Carpenter
And that what you said there is key success. And I say this every episode. We have to stop believing that success is a destination, a bank account, balance and achievement is something because we'll always move the gold code goalpost. It truly is a feeling. Because I've had more money, I've had less money, right? Like I've ridden a roller coaster.

00:44:48:27 - 00:45:00:22
Lisa Carpenter
We've had all sorts of stuff happen and it's recognizing, like I get to choose success every single day. It's whatever I want it to be. But it's no longer based on external markers.

00:45:00:24 - 00:45:22:17
Lisa Chastain
That's right. Because it'll never it'll never be enough. It doesn't matter what magazine articles I've been in, it doesn't matter what media experiences I've had. It doesn't matter all the awards that I've received. What matters most to me is that I get to make a difference with people, and I get to be a light for people, and I get to love my kids, and they love me back.

00:45:22:20 - 00:45:23:22
Lisa Chastain
That's success.

00:45:23:25 - 00:45:43:02
Lisa Carpenter
Well, congratulations on all the work you've done as another person who's been in the trenches, right? I know what it takes. I know what it takes to break those ties from the backgrounds that we come from. So I'm just celebrating you so hard and celebrating all your success and so grateful you came on the podcast. I could share your wisdom, with my listeners.

00:45:43:09 - 00:45:49:11
Lisa Carpenter
Can you tell us where people can find you, where they can get your book? Because you've got another book. Two. I've got two sitting on my desk right beside me.

00:45:49:14 - 00:46:09:27
Lisa Chastain
Yeah, both books are available on Amazon. So this one's called Stop Budgeting. Start living. Transform your money mindset. Transform your life from the perspective that you have the cues inside of you. We just gotta ask the right questions and good coaches ask the right questions. So this book would be as if you're working with me as your coach, and I'm asking you questions so that you can find the answers from within.

00:46:10:00 - 00:46:10:17
Lisa Carpenter
Beautiful.

00:46:10:21 - 00:46:27:29
Lisa Chastain
The other thing is that I have a training and development company that's launching next year, and so I have four day intensive trainings where if you want to come do this, work with me and have a breakthrough weekend and get some healing done, and we're doing breath work and we're we're closing the loop on your past that's launching in April next year.

00:46:27:29 - 00:46:36:17
Lisa Chastain
And I have a 90 day bootcamp that's actually launching tomorrow. I run it every quarter. So there are ways for you to plug into my world. You can start with the book or find me on my website.

00:46:36:17 - 00:46:56:27
Lisa Carpenter
Lisa Inc.com I love it and we will put all the links, all your social links, all the links to all the goodness so everybody can find you. Lisa, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for showing up and being just so real with everybody. I deeply appreciate it, and I know the listeners are going to get so much value out of this episode, and I'm so grateful that we connected way back when in Las Vegas.

00:46:56:29 - 00:46:59:13
Lisa Chastain
Same, same. Thanks for the work that you're doing.

00:46:59:16 - 00:47:15:09
Lisa Carpenter
If Lisa's story hit close to home, it's because you're carrying the same pattern. Doing everything right. Checking all the boxes, making good money, but still feeling broke, unsafe and like it's never enough. Here's the truth. That anxiety isn't about your bank account balance.

00:47:15:16 - 00:47:43:05
Lisa Carpenter
It's about the unworthiness conversation running underneath. Every financial decision you make. The shame you carry about debt. The belief that if you'd just budgeted harder, control tighter, managed better, you'd finally feel safe. But control is never the answer. Self-trust is you're exhausted from white knuckling your way through your financial life. You're collapsing into bed at night, mind racing about money, even though objectively you're doing fine.

00:47:43:08 - 00:48:09:07
Lisa Carpenter
You snap at your partner about spending. You feel guilty every time you buy something for yourself. You've built a life that looks successful on the outside, but inside it's not feeling congruent. The congruency audit is where we look at that gap between the financial success you built on the outside and what you're actually feeling on the inside. We'll identify the exact patterns keeping you stuck in financial control instead of self-trust, the wounds driving

00:48:09:13 - 00:48:17:26
Lisa Carpenter
your relationship with money and what it's going to take for you to finally create success that feels as good on the inside as it looks on the outside.

00:48:17:28 - 00:48:38:18
Lisa Carpenter
This isn't about budgeting harder. This isn't about more spreadsheets. This is about the healing, the not enough story that's been running your financial life probably since childhood. So you can finally step into the version of you who trusts herself with money, makes decisions from abundance instead of scarcity, and redefine success on your own terms. Book your concurrency audit at.

00:48:38:18 - 00:48:42:00
Lisa Carpenter
Lisa Carpenter, aka Forward Slash Audit.