EPISODE 344: Why High Achievers Keep Choosing Chaos While Chasing Safety (And What It Takes to Finally Feel Safe) with Jamie Carlson

00:00:06:29 - 00:00:33:12
Lisa
You built success that looks damn good on the outside, but inside it's costing you your health, your relationships, your energy. And no matter how much you do, it never feels like enough. Welcome to Congruent. I'm Lisa Carpenter, the coach. High performers call when they can afford to burn it all down, but they can't keep living like this either.
00:00:33:14 - 00:00:58:24
Lisa
Here we rip off the mask of success and expose what's real. The patterns that you keep running, the price that you've paid, and how to build success that fuels you instead of empties you. Real success is agency. It's powerful self leadership to run your life instead of being run by it. To let your drive and your well-being finally work together.
00:00:58:27 - 00:01:09:14
Lisa
Because the real win is success. That actually feels good.
00:01:09:16 - 00:01:34:16
Lisa
You spent your whole life chasing safety. Every decision, every achievement, every impossible standard you held yourself to was about creating the security you never had growing up. But here's what nobody tells you. The strategies that got you here. The over functioning, the constant motion, the ability to thrive in chaos. Those same patterns are keeping you from ever actually feeling safe.
00:01:34:18 - 00:01:57:21
Lisa
Welcome to congruence. I'm Lisa Carpenter and this podcast is about what success actually costs you, and what it takes to feel as good on the inside as you look on the outside. Today's guest is Jamie Carlson, a business growth consultant and former corporate leader who spent years in high pressure communications and strategic response roles at companies like meta and PayPal.
00:01:57:23 - 00:02:21:03
Lisa
Jamie helped organizations navigate massive transitions while she was navigating her own, becoming a mother, moving across the country and holding extraordinary responsibility through it all. And she knows this work intimately because she's lived it. For years, Jamie was in physical pain every single day, nerve pain shooting through her neck and face. But she wore it like a badge of honor.
00:02:21:05 - 00:02:42:24
Lisa
She was the calm in the storm. The person everyone turned to when things fell apart because chaos was so familiar to her and she was so good at it. On the outside, impressive career, beautiful family, doing all the things. But on the inside she was numb, going through the motions, unable to feel the joy in the life she'd worked so hard to build.
00:02:42:27 - 00:03:10:05
Lisa
We talk about the cost of being everyone's rock while your body is screaming for you to stop. The moment she realized that proving safety and actually feeling safe are two completely different things. And what it took for her to shift from chasing the next achievement to finally being present in the life she'd already created. If you've ever built something beautiful but can't seem to feel it, if you're exhausted from over functioning but don't know how to stop.
00:03:10:08 - 00:03:18:07
Lisa
Or if you've spent your whole life chasing peace while choosing chaos, this one's for you. Let's dive in.
00:03:18:09 - 00:03:38:20
Lisa
Jamie. So good to have you here. I can't wait to have this conversation. I've been so looking forward to it. Now, I know your professional story. But what I'm most interested in today is how your relationship with success has changed over time. Because I know you've come. We've known each other for a while now, and you've had a massive transition in your life.
00:03:38:21 - 00:04:07:00
Lisa
So you've lived inside some of some very high pressure environments, while your life was also changing in really big ways. Becoming a mom, you moved across the country and you've always held a lot of responsibility. So from the outside, you look very impressive, very successful. But I want to start by going back in time. So let's talk about Jamie in her 20s and 30s, a little baby Jamie, when you're just starting out in the world and wanting to make your mark.
00:04:07:02 - 00:04:15:10
Lisa
How did you define success back then, and what did it mean for you to be doing well in your life and career at that stage?
00:04:15:12 - 00:04:30:21
Jamie
Oh my goodness. So I think in my early 20s, success was really more about an act of rebellion and escape. Ooh. And it was very much around, creating security.
00:04:30:24 - 00:04:32:26
Lisa
Money.
00:04:32:28 - 00:04:47:27
Jamie
Just independence and separation from, you know, my family for the most part. And really kind of like making it on my own in a way that felt safe and secure for me.
00:04:47:29 - 00:04:56:01
Lisa
Was that a bit of, proving energy? Like proving that you can make it out in the world? Was that was was success looped in with that type of energy?
00:04:56:04 - 00:05:16:15
Jamie
Maybe a little bit. I think it was just more about making sure that I could fulfill financial, emotional and just like living security of just being comfortable and confident, like, and not constantly worried about the next shoe dropping.
00:05:16:18 - 00:05:21:29
Lisa
So what do you think you were mainly chasing emotionally?
00:05:22:02 - 00:05:37:09
Jamie
Peace. Calm, predictability, stability. All of these elusive things, they don't necessarily exist at all, but that were definitely not the environment that I grew up in.
00:05:37:11 - 00:05:53:28
Lisa
Okay. Because I was gonna say, like, how did you define that back in the day? Because it's so interesting. I find that, you know, so many of the men and women that I work with, they're chasing this level of peace, yet they don't actually have any concept of what peace is, because all they've ever really known is chaos.
00:05:53:28 - 00:05:59:28
Lisa
And I know you grew up in a family where there was a there was a lot of chaos. I mean, most of us grew up with a lot of chaos.
00:06:00:00 - 00:06:24:17
Jamie
Yeah. So, I grew up a military brat. We grew up moving constantly. My mom had been remarried several times. She was a single young mother. And frankly, when I was young, I just wanted to make sure that I didn't get pregnant for I was 20 and I graduated college. Like, that was like, if we can get there, we beat the statistic.
00:06:24:21 - 00:06:49:08
Jamie
And then it just became how much farther can I go? How much more can I do? Let me just see if I can do this. But it was never really like this pie in the sky. Big audacious idea. It was. How can I empower myself to be self-sustainable, independent, and not relying on a man? My parents society?
00:06:49:09 - 00:06:53:18
Jamie
Like it was really just about autonomy.
00:06:53:21 - 00:07:00:10
Lisa
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is like you really wanted to create a life that was very different from the life that your mom was living.
00:07:00:12 - 00:07:00:25
Jamie
Yes.
00:07:00:29 - 00:07:19:15
Lisa
You wanted it on your terms. And so many of us do that right. We we set up successes like we're trying to get away from what we don't want. We never think about it as, how can I move towards what I do want that drives so many of us? And I mean, eventually it shifts. So you've done some pretty impressive things in your life.
00:07:19:15 - 00:07:37:20
Lisa
You've been at meta, behind the scenes during some massive transitions. You've also been at PayPal. What was being inside at that level of scale teach you about power and influence? Because that's that's pretty impressive to be behind the scenes in some of those big companies.
00:07:37:23 - 00:08:06:04
Jamie
It was incredibly, it was incredibly challenging, extremely high pressure situations. But I think for me, that's how I grew up. So it was kind of like a badge of honor, because being in those situations, like people came to me when they wanted calm, when they wanted to be reassured, and they wanted to be confident that we were moving in the right direction and to kind of just like, balance the situation.
00:08:06:06 - 00:08:29:15
Jamie
And so for me, it was like, you know, the way that I grew up in just like immense amounts of chaos and transition and change constantly being in those, those types of environments during just like massive, massive moments of change and, and massive milestones for those types of organizations and also just being so close to the C-suite.
00:08:29:17 - 00:08:55:14
Jamie
I mean, all of my roles have been incredibly close to the C-suite and supporting them. And, you know, for me, it was like, the crazier, the better. I was good with crazy, and I was really proud of that for a very long time. And, it wasn't until much later that I realized, maybe this is something that I should look at, because this is what I wanted to get away from, right?
00:08:55:17 - 00:09:12:11
Lisa
It's so funny because I, I often say that the type of people that I work with, like, if the house is on fire or the ship is sinking, I want them on my team because they know how to show up in those moments. But so much of our identity becomes wrapped up in being that person who can hold everything.
00:09:12:13 - 00:09:35:26
Lisa
But we often don't look at what that is actually costing us. So, in working behind the scenes in these high pressure environments, I'm sure it fed your ego to a certain degree. Right? Because now you're like, everybody comes to you. So now you've you've garnered significance. You've kind of made it. How did working behind the scenes, though, change how you saw leadership or what you would perceived it to be?
00:09:35:28 - 00:10:07:00
Jamie
I got to experience some really incredible individuals, that, you know, a lot of people don't get the behind the scenes look. You know, how do they really interact with their staff? How do they really lead an organization? Not just how they're showing up externally, but how are they showing up internally? And a lot of what I kind of observed was the cost of that level of, leadership and that level of commitment.
00:10:07:03 - 00:10:23:01
Jamie
And so I think for me, it was just like really getting to observe, like the good and the bad, the the public successes, the private failures, the, you know, the ability to make space, even when there's no time. It's like, you know, we all say we don't have time. Well, let me tell you. You know who does not have time?
00:10:23:03 - 00:11:03:10
Jamie
Mark Zuckerberg, he has no time. And so to witness somebody at that level and watch them still make room for their private passions and for their kids, and to get to see, you know, where some of these leaders falter, right? Because there's no perfect person. And I think the the media has really shifted a lot in the last ten years, and there's been much more of a focus on, you know, who are leading these companies and what are they really like behind the scenes, not just how they're presenting to the world and the products or services that they're bringing, but also like, who are they as individuals and human beings?
00:11:03:12 - 00:11:29:06
Jamie
And so it's really interesting to kind of witness that and to see, you know, just from an objective standpoint, okay. Like, you know, where where are the strengths and weaknesses, because my job was to make sure that we were addressing the weaknesses and pushing forward more of like the positive, you know, areas of expertise and you know, where they could really shine and, and make the biggest impact on the organization.
00:11:29:09 - 00:11:33:11
Lisa
So you were supporting them and becoming better leaders.
00:11:33:14 - 00:12:05:04
Jamie
And basically helping them connect with their audience, whether that was, you know, big brand activations that at PayPal was mostly external facing or, you know, internal communications, executive communications crisis communications. It was really about you know, you have to look at these people as humans, not just as executives or leaders. And really help accentuate and highlight the positives and then help support them on the other things where they may not be as strong.
00:12:05:06 - 00:12:05:25
Jamie
Yeah, that's.
00:12:05:25 - 00:12:10:09
Lisa
What I love about so much of the work I do. Half the time, I don't even know what my people do for a living.
00:12:10:12 - 00:12:11:04
Jamie
It doesn't matter.
00:12:11:08 - 00:12:27:15
Lisa
Because it doesn't matter, right? The whole person. I don't care what their label is. And I'm always astounded to find out what so many of them are holding behind the scenes. So what are some of the biggest costs that you saw in high level leaders, and what are some of the costs that you paid to be in that environment?
00:12:27:18 - 00:12:53:12
Jamie
You know, so I think, you know, when you're so forward facing, there's a lot of misunderstanding. And the less that you put forward, the more misunderstanding that there can be. But there also has to be a balance of like, personal and professional, and you have to carve out space to have that personal, that personal space for yourself and.
00:12:53:15 - 00:12:54:28
Lisa
Away from your work.
00:12:55:01 - 00:13:21:21
Jamie
Away from your work. And you know, you're not your work. And I saw executives that operating at the highest level, that really found a way to to give themselves that balance. But then they're also under a lot of pressure and a lot of judgment and a lot of criticism for when they do make that space. And so you've got an interesting balance, because you see people that make space and they get criticized, and you see the people that don't make space.
00:13:21:24 - 00:13:42:15
Jamie
And those are the people no one wants to work with, right? Those are like the horribly intense, high expectations, constant hustle. And everybody hates working for them. But you know what? They're producing results. And so it's really interesting to watch that behind the scenes because you get a little bit more context of what is your calendar look like.
00:13:42:22 - 00:14:11:02
Jamie
What are their roles and responsibilities? Who are they answering to? Right. And what are the personalities that they need to manage at that level? And so I think there's just some, some, some really interesting kind of dynamics that play into that and being really confident and comfortable and centered in the decisions that you make. Because when you're operating at such an intense level, you're going to make mistakes.
00:14:11:04 - 00:14:38:12
Jamie
People are going to criticize you. Somebody is always going to have something negative to say. And the greatest leaders take that in as feedback and then move forward with their own choice. And so that was really that was really interesting to say. And some leaders are better at it than others. And it takes time and cultivation and, so, so on the, on the leadership side, that was kind of the cost that I noticed.
00:14:38:14 - 00:15:18:22
Jamie
And then for me personally. I spent years in pain to a degree that I was in constant pain 24 hours a day, nerve like shooting into my into my face, through my neck. And I didn't know that it was so bad. But working at that level constantly under pressure, constant, you know, high anxiety, exhaustion. I was traveling constantly earlier in my career, and I was always just in pain, and I kind of just accepted it as, oh, well, that's just my body.
00:15:18:25 - 00:15:43:21
Jamie
That's just how it is. I can't fix this, this thing, you know, my neck spin. You know, I have a congenital condition and that affects my, my skin muscle, and it causes, rigidity and tightness. And so, I just thought that was not fixable. I can't do anything about it. So I'm just going to push through, and I would when it would get too bad, I would go to a physical therapist, go to a chiropractor, go.
00:15:43:21 - 00:16:12:09
Jamie
You don't get treated for the pain. But until I got pregnant, I didn't know that I was not much pain every single day. And a lot of it was self-induced because I was working so tirelessly, so intensely, and ignoring ignoring it. And so when I got pregnant, it was the first time. So I got pregnant. I was 30, with my first, my first daughter.
00:16:12:11 - 00:16:33:01
Jamie
It was the first time my entire life that I was not in physical pain. Every single day. All day. Because your body adjust your muscles loosen up. And my particular condition is muscle related. And so it allowed my neck muscles to relax for the first time in my entire life.
00:16:33:03 - 00:16:57:00
Lisa
You know what I see in so many high achievers? I don't I don't like to call them high performers because I think high performance requires a different mindset. It actually requires you listening to your body, prioritizing rest, like creating space. But so many of us override those signals from our bodies. And what many people don't understand about the nervous system is high achievers typically run a pattern called functional freeze.
00:16:57:03 - 00:17:15:00
Lisa
It's like a high functioning alcoholic, right? But the nervous system is always like wired. And what I love about this is it gives us an incredible pain threshold, a high. Oh my gosh. And I always thought I was like, look at me. Look at the pain. Like, hey, like I really took it as a badge of honor.
00:17:15:00 - 00:17:15:29
Jamie
Yeah.
00:17:16:01 - 00:17:35:08
Lisa
And then I realized, like, you know, my somatic therapist is like this, so this is not normal. You're actually supposed to respond to your pain like it's not something to be proud of. And that's really when I realized, like, how much my nervous system was still in this pattern, but because I could function through it, because I could respond to things quickly.
00:17:35:08 - 00:17:53:12
Lisa
Right. Like I was the go to person. And I love that about myself. Like my identity was so tied up in being that strong person. It it's funny how we attach to these things and we just say, well, this is who we are. They become our identity. And then the thought of it being any different, well, why, why would we want it to?
00:17:53:19 - 00:18:11:04
Lisa
And it's not until things shift in your life, like having a baby or, you know, a major crisis, that you step back and go, wait a minute, what if this what if all of this isn't true? What if there's another way? What if I don't really know myself? So motherhood is a massive transition. This was a really big deal for you.
00:18:11:06 - 00:18:22:05
Lisa
Yeah, because the family you grew up in. So stepping in to like, okay, I'm going to be a mom now.
00:18:22:07 - 00:18:40:09
Lisa
Where did your, like, values around motherhood and your calendar start to disagree? Because, you can't possibly be working in this high stakes environment and be pregnant. So talk us through that transition. Were you still in Big Tech at this time? I think you were at meta this time, right when you were pregnant.
00:18:40:11 - 00:18:43:13
Jamie
No, it was so much worse. I was your PayPal.
00:18:43:16 - 00:18:44:13
Lisa
Oh, you're at PayPal then?
00:18:44:13 - 00:19:09:00
Jamie
Okay, I was at PayPal and I got pregnant and I was traveling extensively at the time. And, when I notified my team, I was literally supposed to go to Spain. Like, I was supposed to travel to Spain for like two and a half weeks for Mobile World Congress. And we were going to have a big brand presence there.
00:19:09:00 - 00:19:35:15
Jamie
And I was like, supposed to like, lead the execution. And, I mean, there's like a list of like 100 things you're not allowed to eat when you're pregnant. And so I was like, like, like, I don't think I can eat anything in Spain. Like it's all cured meat and like, all these things and, my, my boss, all the time times, he was like, do you, do you want to go to, like, you don't have to go to Spain if you don't want to.
00:19:35:18 - 00:20:01:25
Jamie
But like, you're welcome to go, but you don't have to. And, I was I was like, you know what? I really don't think it's a good idea just because I had, you know, I had, like, physical concerns. My body, you know, you don't know what's going on. I, I was, I was concerned about about traveling by myself and, I decided not to go, and that was a really big deal.
00:20:01:29 - 00:20:25:13
Jamie
Was it the first time I was like, I had ever said no to anything? And, you know, it was it was a little bit of, okay, I have to stop traveling like, I can't I cannot be in physical pain and travel and have a baby. It's just not going to work. And so within a month, I actually transition team.
00:20:25:13 - 00:20:51:18
Jamie
So I had been on the, brand experience marketing side, and I had also, as a side job, been, supporting internal events at PayPal. And it was at the time where eBay and PayPal announced that they were splitting. And so, they needed to build a brand new corporate communications team, and they just needed warm bodies.
00:20:51:18 - 00:21:11:25
Jamie
And I had been supporting this team on this, on the side of my desk for, like, you know, years at that point. And they asked me to come on full time. And I knew zero I felt like I knew zero about communications at the time, but I loved the woman that is gonna be working for. I love her team.
00:21:11:27 - 00:21:44:24
Jamie
And I just said, okay, like, this opportunity came here for a reason. I'm I'm going to transition. And so, I literally jumped in and I supported the global internal transition for PayPal becoming an independent company. And, I coordinated all of the internal, kind of activations. Employees at the Nasdaq ringing the bell. What that experience was going to look like a whole campaign, internally around that.
00:21:44:27 - 00:22:05:14
Jamie
And then I literally. Like, we had the, the big event I worked up until the day before I gave birth, and, it was literally the week of, of the listing of papers listing that I had my first baby. So I'm like, literally in the hospital, like, like.
00:22:05:16 - 00:22:23:07
Lisa
This is like, blowing my mind because I'm like, what about that transition caused you to believe that this was going to be a lighter lift? So there was no travel involved? Yeah. When I hear you talk about it, I'm like, this is not a lighter lift. You know, like at least on a plane, people leave you alone for 5 or 6 night.
00:22:23:10 - 00:22:28:15
Jamie
But don't. There's Wi-Fi on the plane.
00:22:28:17 - 00:22:31:06
Lisa
This was not a lighter lift for you.
00:22:31:09 - 00:22:55:00
Jamie
But I could be physically there. And that was. That was a big shift. Because I was traveling once or twice a month for weeks at a time, like, I there's no way that I could have been the mother that I wanted to be without being physically with my kid. Okay? And that was that was like the transition.
00:22:55:03 - 00:23:20:28
Jamie
And so, yeah, I mean, to me, that was like a breakthrough. I was like, oh, my God, I get to be home. I get to do the work I love. Because the reality was, you know, I loved working like in my 20s. If you would have, if you would have suggested I'd be a stay at home mom, dependent on her husband for financial stability like that.
00:23:20:28 - 00:23:24:26
Jamie
That was like my worst, like, nightmare.
00:23:24:28 - 00:23:29:16
Lisa
We were we were separated at birth and I very much felt that I.
00:23:29:18 - 00:24:02:02
Jamie
It just it just felt like death, like a trap. And so working was very important to me. And that was a that was a big conversation that I had with my husband before we got married. I said, listen, I'm going to work forever. Like I love working like that. It's like my happy place. I like solving problems and making things and, you know, creating, like, I love work, I love it, and that's really important to me that I continue to do that.
00:24:02:02 - 00:24:17:27
Jamie
And you're supportive of that. And, you know, I have an incredible partner. And he understands that and supports that. And, you know, for me, just being in physically in one place was was a commitment that was.
00:24:18:00 - 00:24:19:16
Lisa
So the baby arrives.
00:24:19:18 - 00:24:21:07
Jamie
Yes. The baby arrives.
00:24:21:07 - 00:24:40:12
Lisa
What do we have to unlearn when the baby arrives? And what did you have to grieve? Because listen, hey, we love work too. The cows come home. But when you're holding that baby. Yeah, that's when, like, for me, that's when I really started to see some identity shifts I really struggled with, like, I want to be a mom, but I want work.
00:24:40:14 - 00:24:59:06
Lisa
And how do I do this? Both. And can I spin all the plates? And, I mean, I've got some crazy stories about the shit that like breastfeeding, not breastfeeding in my car, but pumping while driving a stick shift car back for my speaking engagement to go find my baby because he needed to be fed like this felt optimal for me.
00:24:59:09 - 00:25:06:03
Lisa
Yeah, and it was not normal. So I'm really curious for you. Like what shifted when you're when your baby was born?
00:25:06:06 - 00:25:35:13
Jamie
I have to be honest, I, I have been incredibly privileged. I have put myself in situations that were incredibly supportive, when I, you know, I, I was in big tech for all three of my children and I had incredible benefits. And my husband was also in big tech. And so he had incredible paternity benefits. So it wasn't like a big shift for me.
00:25:35:13 - 00:26:04:02
Jamie
I think the hardest part for me was like not doing anything for six months. Like I literally step out of work into motherhood. I have a full like, I think I took that first, that first baby. I took five months straight. My husband took the first like eight weeks, and then he took his second, because he had more paternity than I did.
00:26:04:04 - 00:26:25:26
Jamie
And so he took time at the beginning with me. He was incredibly supportive. He changed every diaper overnight, so that I could sleep and just worry about nursing. And then, you know, when he went back to work, I was with the baby for maybe six weeks by myself. And then when I went to work, my husband stayed home for the rest of his paternity leave.
00:26:25:26 - 00:26:43:05
Jamie
So I always felt like we had, or that I had the support to have this really graceful transition. I think the hardest part for me was literally not working and just going absolutely bananas, because the baby sleeps all the time. I was like, oh, baby, I could do babies.
00:26:43:12 - 00:26:45:15
Lisa
Babies are easy babies already.
00:26:45:17 - 00:26:46:09
Jamie
There's so.
00:26:46:09 - 00:26:51:00
Lisa
Easy. You don't realize how easy a baby is until you've got a toddler. And then you're like, my.
00:26:51:02 - 00:26:55:05
Jamie
And then you're like, this isn't this is not easy. No, this I don't want to do right.
00:26:55:07 - 00:27:02:06
Lisa
So the piece that you wanted, that you were chasing in your 20s has now shown up. But what I'm hearing is.
00:27:02:09 - 00:27:31:00
Jamie
You I didn't want I do I didn't want to. I did not know how to function. Yeah. In in that space. And I was two I didn't have the resources to help me. Kind of like, understand what was happening. I didn't realize that my nervous system was just completely, like, out of whack. I didn't have the language to recognize the symptoms.
00:27:31:02 - 00:27:53:11
Jamie
And I was like, I'm. I feel great. I've never felt like physically better in my entire life. I had a beautiful pregnancy. Nobody knew I was pregnant until I was like seven months. I like was glowing. I like my baby. It was like like no time. I mean, it was just to be. I loved being prey. I love being pregnant so much.
00:27:53:11 - 00:28:14:25
Jamie
I had two more and I would have had the fourth if it wasn't for Covid. So, but I loved it, and it was actually the first time I felt so healthy. I felt so good because, you know, it was the first time I wasn't in pain. And it helped me kind of reset things. And so I never went back to being as stressed out as much anxiety.
00:28:14:27 - 00:28:44:27
Jamie
I stopped drinking caffeine for the most part. And, you know, I started paying attention to more of like, how I was feeling because I, I so clearly understood by then that the pain and the anxiety and the stress was what was kind of compounding this existing condition. And so, having children really helped me reprioritize. I also stopped caring about a lot of bullshit.
00:28:44:29 - 00:29:13:11
Jamie
Like it was kind of just this clarity of this matters. None of this us. And so it really took off a lot of mental load. And, that was that was so eye opening for me to, to realize I didn't have to worry about all these things. I didn't have to like, preemptively prevent things from happening. They're going to happen or they weren't.
00:29:13:11 - 00:29:28:02
Jamie
I could deal with it no matter what it was. You know, I had a great partner, a beautiful baby, and those were more important than worrying about all these things and and feeling not in pain was a big driver. Then there was this.
00:29:28:02 - 00:29:40:03
Lisa
The first time you started redefining what success was going to be for you and how you were going to work with your drive and your ambition? Because I hear you saying, like you, you actually really love being a mom.
00:29:40:06 - 00:30:09:22
Jamie
I do, I do, I do. I think, you know, we hear all these horror stories about how terrible it can be and how, you know, you know, I have I have plenty of girlfriends that are like my husband. So I'm like, I have an incredible partner. But I also was very deliberate in that choice because, again, it was my mom and I had lots of examples about what not to do.
00:30:09:24 - 00:30:28:23
Jamie
And I didn't know exactly what it was going to be, but it was like, okay, I have to pick a good partner or I'm not going to get married. I don't have to get married. I don't have to have kids. Like I don't need to do any of it, but if I'm going to do it, I want to make sure that it's in a type of partnership that's going to be really supportive of me.
00:30:28:25 - 00:31:04:23
Jamie
And what I want to do. And so I think for me, I was actually surprised how much I enjoyed pregnancy and motherhood and, you know, I was like, okay, well, let's do this again. Now let's go back to work. And, yeah, I mean, I just my I had a working mom, she was very young when she had me, but she finished college, and then she went and got her her, her master's degree, and she was always the breadwinner.
00:31:04:25 - 00:31:30:00
Jamie
And, so I got to see what a working mom could be. And, you know, I always wanted my kids to have that same sense of, like, you can do whatever you want, and and setting that example. But then also, where are the places where, you know, that weren't so great? And how can I kind of like, adjust for that?
00:31:30:00 - 00:31:53:19
Jamie
But it's been a lot of trial and error. Right. And a lot of it's been done piece by piece. It wasn't like I just woke up and was like, I'm going to, I'm going to change my whole career. I think at that point, I was still trying to balance both of them right, and still be challenged at work and still be a present partner and a mom.
00:31:53:20 - 00:31:54:23
Jamie
Right.
00:31:54:26 - 00:31:58:29
Lisa
So from what I know of your husband, so you embody a lot of masculine energy.
00:31:59:01 - 00:31:59:23
Jamie
Yes.
00:31:59:26 - 00:32:21:11
Lisa
Your husband also embodies a lot of feminine energy and masculine energy and masculine and masculine. But, you know, what I'm hearing is it was you really needed to soften while still honoring your ambition. And that's a challenge for many women when they're when they're constantly in their masculine. Yeah. What I find is that so many women don't trust their feminine energy.
00:32:21:13 - 00:32:44:11
Lisa
They don't see it as safe. Oftentimes, they don't even see it as necessary. Why would we want feminine energy? Because of how we've defined it or how we've grown up? So I really love that you've been able to bridge this place where you've been able to soften, allow yourself to enjoy motherhood while still honoring that drive and ambition that you can that we can have both, because a lot of women don't believe that you can have both.
00:32:44:11 - 00:32:50:11
Lisa
It's got to be one or the other. So I love that you're, sharing that.
00:32:50:14 - 00:33:13:00
Jamie
Well, I think that's the feminine part of it. I think. I wish I was a tool. All these things are tools, and you can take them out and put them back and rearrange them. It's always about optimizing the situation and showing up and in a way that best suited the situation. I mean, you know, I put myself through school, I always had a full time job.
00:33:13:00 - 00:33:38:20
Jamie
I started working very early and, you know, I, I decided to go to Penn State. I, I spent a lot of my childhood in Chicago and, my, the week I moved to Penn State, my entire family moved to Germany because my dad got stationed in Germany at the time. And, I could not afford school.
00:33:38:26 - 00:33:57:24
Jamie
I could not afford, like, I knew I couldn't afford the tuition. I knew I couldn't afford books and food and housing, and I didn't know how I was going to do this. And so I had a full time job at the time, I was going to school part time at night of the community college, and I saved up enough money.
00:33:57:26 - 00:34:21:10
Jamie
And, I bought a condo because it was the only way that in my brain I could think of affording school because I needed a place to live. I knew I couldn't pay for it, and so I figured out how to buy a condo, and I got a roommate, so they could at least cover the mortgage and then everything else I was going to figure out later.
00:34:21:10 - 00:34:38:08
Jamie
Like, I didn't have a job lined up. I was just like, we're. I don't know how this is going to work out, but like, in my mind, it was like it wasn't don't do it. It was what is the most insane way that we can make this happen? And like, obviously just buy a house. You're 20 years old.
00:34:38:08 - 00:34:55:05
Jamie
Why not? So I bought a house I couldn't afford. Move across the country, and I needed money like I needed to survive. I like I had enough money to pay for my first year of tuition. I didn't have money for food or to pay for anything. So, okay, we got I got a roommate, so we got the roommate.
00:34:55:07 - 00:35:17:03
Jamie
We're going to break even on the on the house. They're going to help pay utilities. Okay. I just need to get some sort of job. And, I think most kids are just like, let me get whatever job will hire me. And I was like, no, I have to find the most, like, the most high paying job that I can get in this town.
00:35:17:05 - 00:35:50:19
Jamie
And at the time, it happened to be working for, adult beverage. So, you know. Miller. Coors, McCarty. And so I became a chorus like girl. And then I became. And then I just. And then I was running the team, and then it was like, you know, it was so not me, but it was dipping into that femininity and that, like, feminine side of things to get what I needed.
00:35:50:22 - 00:35:55:22
Lisa
I'm sure in that situation you actually learn very quickly how powerful feminine energy is.
00:35:55:23 - 00:35:57:06
Jamie
Oh my gosh, right.
00:35:57:06 - 00:35:58:15
Lisa
It really is a force.
00:35:58:15 - 00:36:17:04
Jamie
Of of nature. Yeah. Well and it's it's just a tool. It is just a tool. It's just it's it's just a tool. And you know, you can you can make it whatever you want it to be. You can make whatever story you want. But at the end of the day.
00:36:17:07 - 00:36:49:13
Jamie
That's what I needed at the time. And it gave me a safe space to have community and, play while I was getting paid, while I was putting myself through school. And, you know, because I had the corporate card, I didn't have to drink all night. And, you know, I was more like I was more hosting. And that felt safer, because I also needed a do schoolwork, like I needed to graduate.
00:36:49:13 - 00:37:21:25
Jamie
I needed to do I needed to be able to wake up early and go to class and, and and deliver right for myself because I wanted that degree. I'm so I think you just pick and choose different, different pieces of yourself at different times. That was an amazing experience. I learned about, like, you know, putting yourself out there, getting a lot of no's or like, yeses, you know, a lot of, like, overcoming internal, like, oh, my God, I want to do this.
00:37:21:25 - 00:37:39:01
Jamie
This is so weird. Like, approaching people in public. And I'm really glad I did that because that actually ended up leading to this career and experience and marketing for the end, and more of the corporate side of things.
00:37:39:04 - 00:37:46:12
Lisa
You're so scrappy, and I see that it comes from this. There was such a deep desire of I need to be safe.
00:37:46:15 - 00:37:46:27
Jamie
That.
00:37:46:27 - 00:37:59:16
Lisa
Literally drove every decision. You were willing to do things that make other people wildly uncomfortable. Yeah. Or deep desire to be safe was driving everything. So I find that these strategies work for us.
00:37:59:19 - 00:37:59:28
Jamie
Yeah.
00:37:59:28 - 00:38:20:16
Lisa
So they don't. Right. Because you spend your whole life chasing safety, you never actually feel safe. Right? There's always that. So what shifted in you to move you from? Like, I need to make every decision to feel safe because you certainly are now not playing safe. I mean, you moved into entrepreneurship, which is a yeah.
00:38:20:18 - 00:38:44:04
Lisa
Safe of you, you know, because now everything's on you, which I actually believe the safest route. But it doesn't provide, security the way that most of the population would look at security. They see security as a 9 to 5, a paycheck benefits that it. So how did you make that transition from, like, I have to chase safety to knowing I am safe.
00:38:44:06 - 00:38:48:02
Lisa
I am the thing that creates safety in my life. What shifted for you?
00:38:48:04 - 00:39:29:20
Jamie
Yeah. So. I think part of my shift to entrepreneurship was, was actually about safety and self-reliance and trusting myself. So. Working at meta, I was supporting internal crisis and, running internal events. And I had been working on layoffs for about nine months, just facilitating on the on, you know, behind the scenes. And, you know, in several capacities and, you know.
00:39:29:22 - 00:39:38:03
Jamie
At the end of that nine months, I got laid off in the last round and.
00:39:38:06 - 00:40:07:11
Jamie
I, I had already shifted mentally of whatever happens, happens is very detached from the situation. And I had already started to sell a pull toward, toward entrepreneurship. I was like, what is my next thing? And I've been kind of ruminating in the back of my mind of like, what is the next thing? Because I had already kind of hit my plateau and I was too good at my job to promote into anything else.
00:40:07:14 - 00:40:29:15
Jamie
Right. And so, you know, I kind of like, reached. Reached the limit. Right? Like what? What do I do next? I don't know, so I think I'd already kind of mentally moved into entrepreneurship. So next thing I don't know when is going to be. And then when I got laid off, it was like, well, I guess that's what I'm going to do now.
00:40:29:17 - 00:40:54:12
Jamie
Because this has been proven unsafe. And, I literally woke up and I got my email and I went back to bed. I had no reaction. I was not upset, I wasn't angry, I didn't cry, I just had no reaction. I said, great, somebody else gets to deal with that mess. I'm going to go back to sleep.
00:40:54:15 - 00:41:13:21
Jamie
So I went back to sleep and then I woke up. When it was time to get the kids ready for bed, I got the kids ready for bed. And then I checked on all my people. I said, how are you doing? Are you okay? I'm fine. Don't worry about me. It's good. And that was when I was like.
00:41:13:24 - 00:41:28:27
Jamie
Shit, I am safe. I have a fantastic partner. I've got three healthy kids, I've got money in the bank. I never have to work if I don't want to. We've got a beautiful home. Literally nothing is wrong.
00:41:28:29 - 00:41:35:17
Lisa
I love that that moment that you realized that you had created, the safety that you'd been chasing your whole life, it was there for you already.
00:41:35:19 - 00:41:39:12
Jamie
But then I was like, well, what do I do now? Well.
00:41:39:14 - 00:41:53:01
Lisa
That's a whole other behavior pattern, because, you know, what I see is, you know, we get to the top of our game and then it's always, what's next? What's next, what's next? Which also makes it impossible to ever find peace in our life.
00:41:53:04 - 00:41:57:23
Jamie
And so I did the scariest thing and I took, I took six months off.
00:41:57:26 - 00:42:00:02
Lisa
This is why I love you.
00:42:00:04 - 00:42:02:18
Jamie
I was like what is the scariest thing I could do right now.
00:42:02:19 - 00:42:21:07
Lisa
Right. Because that is actually harder than going to get a job is saying, I'm just going to chill out and enjoy the peace that I've created, enjoy the life that I've created. That was the harder choice for you than going to get a job. That's a really profound moment in your life.
00:42:21:09 - 00:42:37:12
Jamie
So, I, I said it, okay, I'm going to take six months and I'm going to do nothing. And then I immediately signed up for acting class because that was the scariest thing I could think of to do.
00:42:37:15 - 00:42:49:27
Jamie
I was like, what is what is like the next drag and I can conquer to prove to myself that I could do it. So I took an acting class and then it was easy and I was like, damn it,
00:42:50:00 - 00:42:57:27
Lisa
What it was in your life if you stopped working from that proving energy, like, how am I? What do you need to prove to me?
00:42:57:29 - 00:43:03:29
Jamie
I think it's more about just proving it to myself. Can I do this? What would this be like?
00:43:04:02 - 00:43:24:01
Lisa
I wonder if there's a difference between. There's a difference between needing to prove it versus just being curious about, you know, can I do this? So proving energy can be really toxic because it means we never get a break. There always has to be something else that we're chasing after to feel good about ourselves. But we can also do nothing else in our lives.
00:43:24:01 - 00:43:39:17
Lisa
I mean, that wouldn't be very fun long term, but we can take a break and just say, you know what? I don't need to prove that I can do anything else. Hard like, this is something that I've stepped into in my life. It's like I've done enough hard shit. I don't need to do anything hard. I can actually enjoy some ease and peace in my life.
00:43:39:19 - 00:43:52:21
Lisa
So I'm inviting you in to actually be curious about that for you as well. I love your drive and ambush ambition. I find it super inspiring and sometimes I'm like, if you're going to take time off, like take it off.
00:43:52:23 - 00:44:01:17
Jamie
I tried so hard and my everything fell apart. I could not manage a schedule. I was just all over the place.
00:44:01:19 - 00:44:03:17
Lisa
That is your edge, my friend.
00:44:03:20 - 00:44:04:04
Jamie
Alone.
00:44:04:08 - 00:44:23:27
Lisa
That is your edge. So I'm curious now at this season in your life, what does self leadership require of you now emotionally? Because now, like you are the boss, you are everything. There's nothing to prove to anybody. There's nobody you're reporting to. Nobody can tell you how awesome you are. Yeah, it's you versus you.
00:44:23:29 - 00:44:57:29
Jamie
Yeah, I think for me it's always been me versus me. I've always been highly competitive with myself, so that's not new. I think for me, overworking, overdoing, doing, like doing things for people so that the overdoing and then the numbness, I think the numbness was the biggest thing that I had to just reconnect with because I just was fine.
00:44:58:01 - 00:45:20:04
Jamie
I didn't feel super, like super happy, excited. I didn't feel sad or depressed. It was just like, everything's cool. It's just we're just here. We're just here. And I really wanted to feel joy because I had a beautiful life. I'd worked so hard to earn this, and I wanted to feel it in my body, and I didn't. At the time.
00:45:20:10 - 00:45:49:25
Jamie
And that's kind of what started me on this path of like, exploration and, finding different teachers and exploring, spirituality and, and, really trying to put labels and frameworks around, like, my experience so I could process some of it. Right. And so I think for me, it's really following that joy and connecting with that as much as I can.
00:45:49:28 - 00:46:11:05
Jamie
What am I excited about working on? Who are the people that I want to work with, not have to work with and indoor witch in corporate like that was my specialty. It's like, how can I work with people that are difficult and make it easy? And so now I don't have to do that. I don't have to work with difficult people if I don't want to know.
00:46:11:05 - 00:46:12:18
Jamie
Right? Like, you get.
00:46:12:18 - 00:46:13:02
Lisa
To choose.
00:46:13:02 - 00:46:41:12
Jamie
Your clients. You get to choose your people. Right? And so I also don't have to do things I don't want to do or don't agree with, which is great because in corporate, especially when you're representing, you know, when you're when you're a representative of the brand in any capacity, there's a certain line you have to toe. You're not speaking on your own behalf, you're speaking on the behalf of the organization.
00:46:41:15 - 00:46:47:26
Jamie
And a lot of times that's that's different, right, than maybe what you personally would agree with.
00:46:47:29 - 00:47:10:21
Lisa
And this is that moment. I think a lot of people get to this right where they've achieved that external success, but it doesn't actually feel successful because there isn't joy, there isn't fulfillment. And it's kind of like you look around and you're like, everything's awesome. I should feel awesome. Why don't I feel awesome? And I know that that usually is when people start their personal development journey or a spiritual journey.
00:47:10:21 - 00:47:29:10
Lisa
And I'm not necessarily talking God, but yeah, deepening into like, who am I? Like, what are the identities that I'm working from? What are the behaviors that aren't serving me? And I know for you, a lot of this, came back to you finding like, what is Jamie's voice sound like?
00:47:29:13 - 00:47:54:19
Lisa
Where? Because you are very like you. I love your logical, strategic brain. Like, you really have that nailed. But you coming to that creative side of your brain and your intuition and what your body is telling you was a journey. So I love to know, like, how you experience your intuition now and how you allow that to guide you in your life and help you find more joy.
00:47:54:22 - 00:47:57:17
Jamie
I think for me.
00:47:57:20 - 00:47:59:23
Jamie
I try to think less.
00:47:59:25 - 00:48:01:10
Lisa
What's good for you.
00:48:01:12 - 00:48:03:15
Jamie
Yes. Which is very hard.
00:48:03:18 - 00:48:09:09
Lisa
I tell my son all the time like stay out of your head, nothing good happens up there. And that's true. It really is the best right.
00:48:09:11 - 00:48:09:27
Jamie
It doesn't.
00:48:09:28 - 00:48:20:00
Lisa
We use overthinking as a way to try and solve our problems. But all it does is it puts focus on our problems. Nothing gets solved like nothing good happens up there.
00:48:20:03 - 00:48:48:20
Jamie
So I think less thinking, I try to celebrate things more. I think, you know, for me, I've never been very good about acknowledging, like, moments or milestones in my life. It's like, oh, great, that was a success. Now we move on to the next thing.
00:48:48:20 - 00:48:49:17
Lisa
Next.
00:48:49:19 - 00:49:22:04
Jamie
Next. Okay. That's great. Cool. We like launch on the Nasdaq and now I'm having a baby. And I'm just like, you know, this constant momentum momentum, momentum. And I think, you know, reflecting back I had so much proof about. My intuition and the strength of my intuition. And, I think it's just a matter of like reflecting on that and really like anchoring in until, like what that feels like and trying to live more from that place.
00:49:22:04 - 00:49:24:12
Jamie
But, I think that's.
00:49:24:17 - 00:49:32:05
Lisa
What does that feel like for you? How do you know when it's your intuition versus your brain chattering at you?
00:49:32:07 - 00:49:42:00
Jamie
I just know it just feels. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know why, but there's still good. We're going to get a.
00:49:42:00 - 00:49:43:13
Lisa
Nudge and you get a nudge to.
00:49:43:15 - 00:50:07:16
Jamie
Follow it. And I think, you know, for, for example, my husband and I were living in, in, the Bay area during Covid. We were both in tech and we had this tiny little house, and it was, I, I went back to work the week.
00:50:07:18 - 00:50:48:24
Jamie
People went remote. And so I had a six month old newborn, two other kids under the age of five, two dogs, a cat and a rabbit. And my husband in this tiny little house, and we were both working. And so, you know, Jeff's working full time in his office across the hall. And I'm literally hosting live events for thousands of employees with baby animals in the background of the nursery, because I didn't have another private area to film from.
00:50:48:27 - 00:51:21:24
Jamie
And I was just like. This is insanity. We cannot, cannot continue to live like this. And like we both have incredible jobs like this. Makes no sense. And so at the time, both of our CEOs had, you know, had had, big ambitions to, to transition to remote work permanently. And so we were both given the opportunity to go remote.
00:51:21:24 - 00:51:53:18
Jamie
And we're like, I don't know what like, I don't know what this is going to look like, but the house that we needed in California would have been like 4 million. And I was like, I just can't wrap my head around that. In, in, you know, for what you're going to get for that. And so we're like, we're going to leave California and we don't we didn't have any, you know, major ties.
00:51:53:20 - 00:52:16:08
Jamie
To California. Jeff's family lives on the East Coast. My family, my family is in North Carolina now, and so we didn't have any, like, need to be there other than, like, work, obviously. And so, we decided to move and so we started looking on the East Coast to get a little bit closer to family.
00:52:16:08 - 00:52:34:11
Jamie
And we kind of locked in in North Carolina. I had looked diligently for like six months, and I was like, at the end of the year, I was like, we got to find a place. I'm just going to fly out there in the middle of Covid. I don't care, like we're probably going to have to build, which is going to be like, like 13 months to complete.
00:52:34:11 - 00:52:57:21
Jamie
Like we got to find a place now. Like we just have to. And I remember getting online and trying to book a flight and it was 10 to 33 hours because there was no direct flights to God to Raleigh. And I was like my brain. Like I was like, oh my, that is too far from work. We can't do we, we cannot do this like it's just not going to work.
00:52:57:28 - 00:53:17:22
Jamie
And at the time Jeff was managing a team in Asia. And so it's like too far from the from the West. It was just not going to work. So we literally sat down. I listed all of the airports that we needed to get to for both of us for work, personal, family, whatever. I was like, these are all the airports that we need access to.
00:53:17:22 - 00:53:39:11
Jamie
And we like, I like, went online. I did all this research and we narrowed it down to three locations Atlanta, Denver and Austin. And we looked at properties and all all three places. And I was like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And so I called my best friend who had actually relocated to Austin right before the pandemic hit her husband, as in gaming.
00:53:39:11 - 00:54:01:24
Jamie
And, there's lots of tech and gaming down here, so she's like, just talk to my realtor. And it's like, okay, call the realtor. I'm like, listen, I've been looking for a house for six months in North Carolina. I don't know anything about Austin. I've thrown a bunch of events at South by Southwest and to the extent of my my awareness, like, what do you think?
00:54:01:27 - 00:54:25:12
Jamie
We talked for 2.5 hours. The next day he sent me 55 listings. I reviewed all of them. Saturday he takes me through virtual tours. He's got three different realtors in three different towns. We're and we're touring houses. Literally. Monday we put in an offer at a house, and we negotiated the offer at the Thanksgiving table, signed it, and we moved in six weeks.
00:54:25:15 - 00:54:47:04
Jamie
Like it was just like, I don't know, but we're going to just keep moving things forward. Yeah. And and it was crazy because at the time we got to really we got, we got the house for less than asking, which was like unheard of number one. And we got it right before the real estate market went bananas, because people were still a little bit tentative about moving during Covid.
00:54:47:04 - 00:55:13:18
Jamie
They didn't know the economy, whatnot. People were still, not ready to, to leave. So, it, I mean, I was like, I don't know, but like, we're just going to keep moving, like one foot in front of the other. And it just it works out. And so I find that most of the time I just say, I don't know, we're just going to see let's just see why not.
00:55:13:20 - 00:55:18:18
Jamie
I love unless there's like, there's like a gut reaction of like, no, don't do it. Not safe. Like.
00:55:18:20 - 00:55:37:03
Lisa
You know that. You know that. Yeah. I could talk to you all day. I think you've got so many amazing stories you've just read that you've led such a rich life. I'm excited for what is coming for you in the future. So I've got one final question for you. If you could advise your younger self about success.
00:55:37:06 - 00:55:46:22
Lisa
What would you want her to know? If you could go back in time and say, like, I need you to know this about success.
00:55:46:25 - 00:56:14:08
Jamie
I don't think there's a single definition. I think it's less about the destination, more about the journey, because you don't know if you're gonna get to the end. So you better be damn sure you're going to enjoy the process. And so I think, you know for me I spend a lot of time like like like looking at the goal and like like manifesting the goal.
00:56:14:10 - 00:56:37:03
Jamie
So like visualization. And I didn't look around enough. Yeah, I, I, I didn't, you know, really let myself enjoy the moment. And yeah, it's, it's you got to really enjoy them. Because you don't know. No, I know I.
00:56:37:05 - 00:56:43:20
Lisa
I've talked about this that, you know, I think once upon a time I also believed that success was a place to get to.
00:56:43:22 - 00:56:44:01
Jamie
Right.
00:56:44:01 - 00:56:50:04
Lisa
And I would know when I would get there. However, I was never going to get there because I was never going to allow myself to get there. Because, again, raise the bar. Raise the bar.
00:56:50:09 - 00:56:50:18
Jamie
Yeah.
00:56:50:24 - 00:57:14:06
Lisa
Goal post. And I've really come to this place of like, oh, it's not actually a destination. It's a feeling. It's a choice. Yes. And it's about being present and it's about enjoying the things that we've created for ourselves and honoring our drive and our ambition, and allowing the universe to continue to, like, lay out breadcrumbs for us and see where it takes us with a lot more fun and wonder and ease.
00:57:14:08 - 00:57:39:15
Lisa
So thank you so much for coming on and sharing this time with me. Such a great conversation. I know it's going to really impact people who are listening. I just, you know, I want to normalize what success looks like as men and women, how we're defining it. And it's really so much I find people are so fascinating when we talk about the behind the scenes versus like, who you are at meta or who you are at people, but who were you as you navigated all of this?
00:57:39:15 - 00:57:49:27
Lisa
And how did things in your life change you? So I appreciate you sharing so honestly. And I see that you still have journey to walk, as we all do.
00:57:50:02 - 00:57:50:20
Jamie
From.
00:57:50:22 - 00:58:03:13
Lisa
Discovering who we are and the things that are still really getting in the way of us feeling how we want to feel. Any closing remarks? Where can people find you, Jamie? And we're going to put everything in the show notes. But what are you doing now? Where can people find you?
00:58:03:16 - 00:58:23:22
Jamie
Yeah. So, I am on LinkedIn so you can find me on LinkedIn. Feel free to reach out. And right now I'm supporting small businesses and helping them scale like the big brands. But for without that budget and being more strategic about the levers that they're pulling to really bring scale to their business.
00:58:23:24 - 00:58:34:26
Lisa
I love that. Okay, so we will put everything in the show notes. Make sure you go and check out Jamie's work. Thank for thank you for joining us today on the podcast, and we'll catch you on the next episode.
00:58:34:29 - 00:58:59:07
Lisa
If Jamie story about chasing safety while choosing chaos hit home for you. I've created a free assessment to help you see if you're running the same pattern. It's called the Safety Paradox Assessment, and it includes ten statements to help you identify where you might be choosing pressure over peace. Plus five deep coaching questions that will help you understand why you keep doing it and what actual safety would require of you.
00:58:59:09 - 00:59:08:25
Lisa
You can grab it at Lisa Carpenter, aka Forward slash bonus. That's Lisa Carpenter, aka forward slash bonus.