EPISODE 332: When Being Strong and Capable Becomes Your Prison: Learning to Soften Without Losing Your Edge with Manja Horner

00:00:06:29 - 00:00:33:12
Lisa
You built success that looks damn good on the outside, but inside it's costing you your health, your relationships, your energy. And no matter how much you do, it never feels like enough. Welcome to Congruent. I'm Lisa Carpenter, the coach. High performers call when they can afford to burn it all down, but they can't keep living like this either.

00:00:33:14 - 00:00:58:24
Lisa
Here we rip off the mask of success and expose what's real. The patterns that you keep running, the price that you've paid, and how to build success that fuels you instead of empties you. Real success is agency. It's powerful self leadership to run your life instead of being run by it. To let your drive and your well-being finally work together.

00:00:58:27 - 00:01:11:06
Lisa
Because the real win is success. That actually feels good.

00:01:11:08 - 00:01:31:16
Lisa
But if you're honest, it's come at a cost. Maybe you're the one that everyone turns to. The rock. The capable one. Maybe you collapse into bed, exhausted every night while your mind races through tomorrow's tasks. Maybe you can't slow down. Because if you do, everything will fall apart. Welcome to congruence.

00:01:31:16 - 00:02:08:20
Lisa
I'm Lisa Carpenter, and this podcast is about the truth beneath success. The costs you've carried, the wake up calls you couldn't ignore, and what it really takes to build success that actually feels good. Today's guest is Mona Horner, learning experience strategist, founder of boost and author of the forthcoming book Passing the Torch in the trades. She pioneered AI applications that capture retiring trades people's wisdom and left a high powered corporate career at a leading financial institution because her integrity mattered more than her security money.

00:02:08:20 - 00:02:33:24
Lisa
And I figured out pretty quickly that we are both cut from the same cloth. We're both recovering perfectionists, and we're both doing the uncomfortable work of learning that ease can feel good, and it's safe. When Mona was just four, her sister had cancer and her parents were stretched beyond capacity, and she absorbed the lessons that shaped everything. Be strong, be capable, and never add to the burden.

00:02:33:26 - 00:02:58:18
Lisa
That pattern drove her to corporate success and eventually to walking away from that six figure salary because she wouldn't compromise her values. However, her husband core values were security and stability, and still are. And she basically blew up their predictable life. Now, her biggest challenge isn't the business of the book. It's something she's just starting to see that she can allow things to be easy.

00:02:58:20 - 00:03:06:23
Lisa
If you know you're over functioning but can't figure out how to soften without losing your edge. This episode's for you. Let's dive in.

00:03:06:25 - 00:03:25:04
Lisa
Manja, I'm so glad you're here. You have built an incredible career helping people learn and grow. And now, when we met, we were talking about how you are using AI in your business now to help gather the wisdom of people who are retiring from the trades because that wisdom is leaving with them.

00:03:25:04 - 00:03:43:00
Lisa
And I was so intrigued by this. And just the the whole idea of of how much information is now online. I'd love though to start by going back a little bit, and I want to know where you think your love of learning and growth really began.

00:03:43:03 - 00:04:04:08
Manja
Oh my goodness. Thanks for having me, Lisa. This is so sweet. I love getting on these podcasts where we're not necessarily just talking, you know, business and strategy, but we get to talk about life and how we got here. So thanks for having me. Honestly, I think a lot of my love of learning came from, way back in my childhood.

00:04:04:14 - 00:04:23:14
Manja
I had a very strange education myself. My older sister, she's a year older than me. She had cancer when she was five, and I was one of four kids at the time. So my mom had four little kids under the age of five, and her eldest is diagnosed with cancer and has to spend what turned out to be a year at SickKids.

00:04:23:17 - 00:04:50:11
Manja
And so I was for the second one in the family, and my mom had to homeschool because it was chaotic. Our class had chickenpox. So, you know, you had to kind of keep your kids out because my sister was very vulnerable, obviously, to infections. Long story short, I loved learning from the very beginning because my mom was such an interesting, interactive, artistic teacher.

00:04:50:11 - 00:05:10:11
Manja
So I learned to read Super young. And when I started in the public school system, a couple of years later, I was fully reading, writing. I was like a little bit of a circus freak because they would walk me out to the office and like, you know, show stories I'd written. And I didn't realize it was kind of a big deal to be reading and writing at that level.

00:05:10:11 - 00:05:34:22
Manja
So little. So I didn't do that well in public school because I was already just so eager to learn and and quite far ahead already. So I was in and out of public, but mostly out. And, my mom homeschooled us again, by the way, my sister's fine. She's a woman. She's got lovely kids. She's grown up, she's great.

00:05:34:22 - 00:05:57:26
Manja
So I just wanted to. I didn't want to end on, like, a sour note there. But that's really where it started. So I had a lot of different education. And my mum used to always say that she could always count on me in the room to hear her lesson, because she wasn't a qualified teacher. She. She said she could always count on me to hear what she was teaching, and I would turn around and be like, oh, so what she means is this.

00:05:57:28 - 00:06:22:28
Manja
So I was just quick at kind of grasping and distilling and then reiterating for in my case, it was my siblings, my peers. But I think I've always just been a really independent, voracious learner, and that's never really left. I also, started teaching violin from the age of 16 because one of the benefits of homeschooling is you can pursue what you love.

00:06:22:28 - 00:06:42:23
Manja
And so in my grade eight year, I got my Royal Conservatory of Music teaching certificate when I was 13. Because my mum just let me not worry about Bookwork and I got to kind of go all in on my on my violin. So yeah, I was teaching. I had a studio of goodness, 25, 30 students when I was in high school.

00:06:42:25 - 00:06:53:08
Manja
Wow. So it's always just kind of been a thing. I just take a lot of info, distill it, try to make sense of it and draw a lot of conclusions and then share that in some way.

00:06:53:10 - 00:07:06:27
Lisa
And it sounds like you're able to share it in a way that other learners will be able to hear in the way that they need to hear it, so that they can learn and have somebody who has. I mean, I've worked through it now, but I had a lot of school trauma because I wasn't an easy learner. Right.

00:07:06:27 - 00:07:28:15
Lisa
When you go to school, when you're in the public education system, it's very like, here are the lines, stay inside the lines and this is how you learn. And, I'm a very diverse thinker. I think, and it was really, really challenging to me to be in that environment. So I've often wondered like, oh, what would it have been like if I had just been allowed to learn in an unstructured environment?

00:07:28:15 - 00:07:36:26
Lisa
Because that's really how I like to learn now. So I'm always fascinated when I hear people say that they love to learn, because it was something I had to learn to love.

00:07:36:29 - 00:07:38:07
Manja
Right?

00:07:38:09 - 00:07:45:03
Lisa
Yeah. So anyways, okay, so when people look at you now, right, you're a founder strategist, you're working on your book.

00:07:45:05 - 00:07:45:23
Manja
Yes, I am.

00:07:45:24 - 00:07:52:12
Lisa
Or you're working on your book. What don't they see about what it took for you to get there?

00:07:52:14 - 00:08:13:27
Manja
Probably. Yeah, probably just. I've recently just ripped the band aid off of all of those labels. Not the band aid. I've ripped all the labels off, and it feels a little painful, but I think what they wouldn't see is all of the insecurities and the labels that you have to shed in order to become these next versions of yourself.

00:08:13:27 - 00:08:43:24
Manja
And it's such a cliche to say like, you level up and you have to become a new version of yourself, or you have to become that next version, and before you know, success will come to you. And it's really true. Perfectionism. And that fear has been huge for me. I think being a young student who was a violinist, you know, violin, ballet, certain dances like these, these kind of activities are honing in on minute detail and they're really nit picky.

00:08:43:24 - 00:09:02:09
Manja
And my dad was a professional musician, so I never felt like my playing would ever measure up. And I think as a musician, you never think you're very good. When I look back, I think I was actually pretty decent, you know, and I've gone on to be a music teacher and played in orchestras and all these things.

00:09:02:09 - 00:09:30:01
Manja
But that's that. Perfectionism is shitty, and that's something you kind of I had to really get over. But also not losing a sense of mastery because I believe in mastery. Yeah. And I think that we have let a lot of our standards slide. So I'm not opposed to holding high standards and holding yourself to that level of, let's just say excellence or perfection.

00:09:30:01 - 00:09:37:04
Manja
But knowing that perfection is never going to be fully attained, and you can't let yourself be held back just because of that. Yeah. So that's one.

00:09:37:09 - 00:09:58:07
Lisa
There's there's no way to even measure perfection. No, but you're right. Like I used to be a dancer as well. So I was a dancer. You are musician and there is a level of, like precision that comes with that. Yeah, but it's when you take it from like this context and then you apply to all areas of your life where we, where we lose, like, wait a minute, we can't be perfect over here.

00:09:58:07 - 00:10:23:15
Lisa
It's not meant to be. So in this area we're striving. But even then, you know, you can't measure. You can't measure. Perfect. So how do you now for you? Because I'm also a recovering perfectionist. Where's that line for you between perfectionism and excellence? How do you know when you've crossed into like, oh, I'm like, I'm like chasing way beyond where I'm ever going to get to in terms of like trying to make this so perfect.

00:10:23:17 - 00:10:43:28
Manja
I think I just notice it more when I procrastinate. So I don't think I'm really too worried about now not putting something out because it's not perfect, because I've overcome that. I know now that nothing's ever going to be perfect. And I've taken an iteration mentality and actually it's one of our core values as a business. It's iterate.

00:10:44:00 - 00:11:07:13
Manja
That's actually listed in one of our values because I just realized, like, nothing's ever going to be perfect the first time you have to put it out there and then just continuously reflect and refine and iterate. So I think I'm kind of getting through that now. But I will notice when I start to procrastinate, that's when I come back to, okay, what are we doing here?

00:11:07:13 - 00:11:19:12
Manja
How are we sabotaging? Is this because we're afraid of failing? It's just because we're afraid of not being perfect enough. Is there a judgment component? So I think that's my trigger now.

00:11:19:14 - 00:11:35:27
Lisa
Yeah. Because perfectionism is so much about if I can just get it to look this way, then I won't be judged. But ultimately, you're constantly judging yourself for not being good enough, right? So we're it's just such a fascinating loop we get into. And I know when I was working on my book, so I had help with my book.

00:11:35:27 - 00:11:43:09
Lisa
You're doing your solo. The amount of like how many more times are you going to rewrite this chapter, Lisa?

00:11:43:11 - 00:12:01:05
Lisa
You know, it was a real thing to, like, finally push away from the computer and be like, you know what? Like, this is good enough. Yeah. And it's okay to, like, put it out into the world, because that's when I really did see a lot of my perfectionism coming back, because I wanted to create something that was really, really great and I knew I needed help with it.

00:12:01:07 - 00:12:10:14
Lisa
But man, like I delayed that for so long and I'd hired help because I didn't want to delay it because I knew I would. I still found her way.

00:12:10:17 - 00:12:27:06
Manja
Well, it's so funny because last week I was meeting with my therapist and we were doing an eMDR session. It was actually the first time I've done it. Because I said to her, I can talk my way through anything, and I don't want to be you here, so we need to do something more somatic. So we're doing this.

00:12:27:06 - 00:12:50:16
Manja
And actually, it was all around an incident in my childhood around music. It was a it was an audition situation. And it it came out when I was talking about putting my book out into the world. And I thought, well, for goodness sakes, like the connection between that 12 year old at an audition and getting this book out into the world.

00:12:50:16 - 00:13:07:25
Manja
It's so interesting how this stuff can come up. So I think I'm just very open to exploring how my childhood, you know, is still coming up and how I can kind of heal those bits, close those chapters, and remind myself that it's it's okay. Yeah. You know, I'm a grown up now.

00:13:08:00 - 00:13:27:09
Lisa
I joke that so many of us are just, wounded children walking around in adult bodies. And it's funny. It's funny you bring up that story about performing, right? Because I was one of my goals is to do more speaking. So obviously I do speaking all day, every day, whether it's on the podcast or on Instagram, but actually getting up on stage.

00:13:27:09 - 00:13:49:06
Lisa
Sure, wearing clothes because I can go up on stage competing when I'm doing my shows right. Which seems odd that I'm more comfortable doing that than having a microphone in my hand. But I remembered an incident when I was little. I was a monkey. I was cute, right? It was. Maybe I was eight, maybe five, and my tail fell off when I was performing.

00:13:49:08 - 00:14:06:17
Lisa
And I remember everybody laughing at me. I can still feel it in my body and I like I ran off stage and I've realized that that story, that moment, actually created part of the fear that I have around going on stage and really putting myself out there. What if I forget my world? It's crazy.

00:14:06:19 - 00:14:28:02
Manja
So wild. And mine was the smallest comment from, a conductor who was doing the orchestra or who was doing the audition. And I started a song and it was my best song, like I was I won a really big, festival award with this piece, like, it was my best, and I was I started it and I knew it wasn't my best.

00:14:28:08 - 00:14:47:01
Manja
And so I asked if I could redo, and she made a comment like, oh, this song again, or something like, as if she's heard the song so many times, like, why are we hearing this song? And it wasn't even a big deal. But to me, I was just like, oh, my best song is not a good choice. Like.

00:14:47:01 - 00:14:56:23
Manja
And it was like all of a sudden this just this doubt wave crashed and I'm like, wow, I'm still reliving that. Come on, it's time for that to be closed. So I'm curious.

00:14:56:23 - 00:15:01:08
Lisa
Never worry about bothering people too much 100%.

00:15:01:08 - 00:15:25:07
Manja
And I think some of this comes back as well to being a child who had a sister who was sick. Because, you know, she had a lot of challenges. My dad moved to the hospital to live with her while she was going through treatment. And I learned that you don't want to be a bother, right? Because mom and dad are so stressed, like they're going through so much.

00:15:25:09 - 00:15:44:04
Manja
So just don't just don't be a bother. And so I think you learn in those cases, and I don't want to say it like my it's not my parents fault, but I think it's just a product of that kind of a situation where you just learn just to kind of just to blend a little, don't overshadow, don't over.

00:15:44:06 - 00:15:49:06
Manja
Like, I don't think I was ever sick, right? It's like, don't ever.

00:15:49:06 - 00:15:50:07
Lisa
Be cigarets.

00:15:50:09 - 00:15:51:23
Manja
Yeah. Don't be a burden.

00:15:51:25 - 00:15:57:16
Lisa
So how do you overcome that? Because when you're growing a business. Well, we have to take up space.

00:15:57:16 - 00:15:58:03
Manja
Yeah, we.

00:15:58:03 - 00:16:08:26
Lisa
Have to be able to allow ourselves to be in the room and know that, you know, we belong there, and we have something to say just as much as everybody else. How did you move through that or does that still come up for you?

00:16:09:03 - 00:16:17:23
Manja
I think it's still comes up and I'm moving through it. So one of the big things I did was, well, I started therapy. My husband.

00:16:17:23 - 00:16:18:22
Lisa
Was needs to be in therapy.

00:16:18:27 - 00:16:19:11
Manja
My husband.

00:16:19:11 - 00:16:19:19
Lisa
Was a.

00:16:19:19 - 00:16:43:16
Manja
Cop. Yeah, he was a cop and a detective for about 16 years. And so I started because I had a lot of stuff just around that, you know, marriage, handling that, kids, solo parenting, always being afraid he'd be dead and I'd be single mom. And, like, just a lot of stuff that would come up. So I started therapy, and then after a while, I was like, I started treating my therapist a bit like a business coach.

00:16:43:16 - 00:16:56:05
Manja
So we spent almost a whole year just working on financial mindset and fear of overshadowing. And then I met a group of women, and we decided to do a book club around the Big Leap by gay Hendricks.

00:16:56:09 - 00:16:56:25
Lisa
Great book.

00:16:56:25 - 00:17:29:09
Manja
And I asked my therapist if she would consider facilitating our group book club. And so she did. So she she worked with our small group for well over a year, and we went bit by bit, very intentionally through the big leap journaling, discussing, and then anything that came up that was kind of too private for the group. We'd go deeper into in, in my personal sessions, and it was actually a really cool way of taking a book and bringing it to life.

00:17:29:11 - 00:17:52:15
Manja
Therapeutically, I think that was a huge breakthrough for me. Because I just realized how much I was just limiting myself through my own excuses and behaviors and and fears, and none of them were true. You know, I am loved. I have a very solid, supportive family. I am super capable, and I can figure literally anything out.

00:17:52:15 - 00:18:20:29
Manja
So just make the decision. Don't worry about it. So that was big. It was it was the therapy. And I do a lot of prayer and journaling. Like I'm very Christian, very spiritual. And so I think just knowing that, you know, I have such strong foundations all over the place, that's that's what gets me through. But it's easy to just be chill and not go for your dreams.

00:18:21:02 - 00:18:34:29
Manja
But I can't do that. I've never been able to do that. I've always been kind of outside of the norm, ambitious, a big thinker. And so I'm never happy when I just do the normal thing. I'm miserable, so I have no choice.

00:18:35:01 - 00:18:47:20
Lisa
Right? We're like sisters, right? It's. I'm here to live an extraordinary life. Yeah, I just can't not. And I think that some of us are hardwired to want to grow more than others. Like I think.

00:18:47:20 - 00:18:48:01
Manja
So.

00:18:48:03 - 00:18:55:16
Lisa
I think it's possible for everybody to grow like I hold that belief, but I don't think that everybody in this lifetime is meant to.

00:18:55:19 - 00:19:13:01
Manja
Yeah. And do you? Yeah. I know you've got several kids. I've got three. And it can be frustrating as a parent to to observe your children and be like, oh, I see so much potential in you and you just don't care. Like you're just happy to chill. And I'm like, man, I wish I could.

00:19:13:03 - 00:19:13:21
Lisa
Yeah, it's.

00:19:13:21 - 00:19:19:19
Manja
Nurture that more and drive that more. But realizing that's not everybody's no personality or.

00:19:19:22 - 00:19:36:26
Lisa
Kids be where they're at and have their journey because we actually don't know what's best for them. Although a lot of times we want to believe that we do. However, you know, my oldest is now 25 and some stuff has come out and I've realized he has been paying attention to things his mom has said through the years.

00:19:36:26 - 00:19:53:27
Lisa
Right. Because I'm always just kind of I'm just being me. Yep. And, you know, we finally got him into therapy to work on some stuff because he's like, well, you know, mom, it is what it is. And I'm like, that is a copout sentence. I'm like, it isn't is what it is. It's your creating whatever is happening in your life.

00:19:54:00 - 00:20:16:24
Lisa
And if you want to grow into a man who can be a solid foundation for his family, for your kids, like whatever your vision is that starts with you. So go talk to someone now. Like, I wish I had been doing this work in my 20s, I was not, I was too busy doing other stuff that well, there was no social media, so we don't need to talk about it.

00:20:16:26 - 00:20:17:27
Manja
But thankfully.

00:20:17:28 - 00:20:18:23
Lisa
Thankfully.

00:20:18:25 - 00:20:48:14
Manja
Thankfully we had a chance to grow up without too much of that. Yeah. So I I'm a big fan of therapy. I've loved it. And now I'm trying something different because I realized I could talk my way pretty slickly through my therapy. And so I'm getting into some more somatic work right now, because I'd like to see, well, when I tell a story and that heat crawls up the back of my neck, or my hands start to get numb, it's like, oh, wow, okay, that's a physical reaction.

00:20:48:19 - 00:20:53:22
Manja
What's happening? Let's dig into that. So I'm always curious.

00:20:53:24 - 00:21:13:02
Lisa
I love hearing that because for many women like you and like me, we spend most of our lives from our neck up. And then as we start to do this work, we start to integrate with our body, and then we start to feel that sensations, and then getting into the somatic work is really it's not that you're never going to be triggered like there is no end to this work.

00:21:13:02 - 00:21:30:08
Lisa
But it's not about being broken. It's just about knowing yourself better and learning how you can lead yourself better through anything. So when you feel those things, how to move through it? I have a somatic practitioner that I work with hands on, and it's been really fascinating because half the time I'm like, what? What are we doing here?

00:21:30:10 - 00:21:33:08
Lisa
Right? Like, what are we actually doing? What are you.

00:21:33:08 - 00:21:33:27
Manja
Touching.

00:21:33:27 - 00:21:56:26
Lisa
And quieting? My brain and just trusting that my body is getting the wisdom that it needs? But even learning how long I've been in a pattern of high functioning frees, so to speak, and allowing my body to soften. Because for most of my life, it really I really was armored up. And because of all the things that you've gone through in your life with your sister and all the things, right, we do.

00:21:56:26 - 00:21:59:06
Lisa
We learn how to be the wrong one.

00:21:59:11 - 00:22:26:00
Manja
Yeah, exactly. And when you are super strong and very capable, it can be hard. I look at other people, you know, lovely people who are in my life and I just think, wow, good for you for just being able to chill and let that person totally manage that aspect of your life. What might that be like? And I actually have to say, sometimes I feel a little bit of envy around that because it's really not my personality.

00:22:26:02 - 00:22:42:06
Manja
Yeah. And feeling, I don't know. I've been doing a lot of acupuncture as well, traditional Chinese acupuncture, but with, incredible Japanese practitioner, I think just more, more body work. I mean, exercise, movement, all the things.

00:22:42:09 - 00:22:59:19
Lisa
Allowing yourself to soften and feel safe. Yeah. Relationships in our bodies, for most of us, that is a journey because we don't realize that we have been working from this place of not really feeling safe. So I don't like to say like coming home to ourselves, because I think that's an overused coach's speak. And what does not even mean agree.

00:22:59:27 - 00:23:21:00
Lisa
It drives me crazy. A lot of the coaches speak, but it is this like, well, what does it look like to really leave my body in a different way to really understand what it is? I'm feeling and use that as feedback so I can so I can move through it. And, you know, I see there's people in this world who really need a kick in the ass to like, you need to go like do the things.

00:23:21:03 - 00:23:27:03
Lisa
And then there's people like you and I who are doing the things. But part of our lessons is learning to soften.

00:23:27:05 - 00:23:27:16
Manja
Yep.

00:23:27:22 - 00:23:30:24
Lisa
That's a little bit more chill. And on some people.

00:23:30:25 - 00:23:52:25
Manja
That some people have said to me, oh man, when I met you, you were so intimidating. I'm like, why? In my mind I just want to fit in and belong because I've always been like the weirdo outsider. I mean, everybody homeschools now. It's kind of the cool thing. When I homeschooled, it was only the really weird people that homeschooled and, a big family and all these things.

00:23:52:25 - 00:24:15:20
Manja
It's like I always felt a bit like a weirdo. I never quite fit in. So yeah, I'm always thinking in my mind, wow, really? I come across as intimidating. I hate that because I just think I'm so curious about people and I just want them to, you know, be equally, interested and responsive. And so I just find that hilarious.

00:24:15:20 - 00:24:19:26
Manja
So I'm starting to learn how can I soften? Maybe I am coming across super intense.

00:24:19:29 - 00:24:36:06
Lisa
I had to learn to like when I was meeting people, because I would get caught in my perfectionism and I had to learn, like, how can I soften and like just go in there and introduce myself so that people did feel welcome because I get all the time that I'm intimidating, especially if I'm dressed a certain way or whatever.

00:24:36:08 - 00:24:51:21
Lisa
I want to change who I am. But now, because I know that people can interpret me that way, it is now my responsibility to figure out how do I need to soften so that people can see like what's behind the, you know, fancy clothes or. Well, and I was going on.

00:24:51:25 - 00:25:12:08
Manja
I think sometimes it's like we almost feel as if we have to fight or prove ourselves to be in that room. And so you lead with, this is what I am and what I do. And I think when you have that physical confidence because you're a, you're petite woman, but you have a presence that's confident and, you know, maybe bigger than your physical stature.

00:25:12:08 - 00:25:34:12
Manja
And I think sometimes, you know, we use that as a way to project authority and project. I'm meant to be here, and I will. I've often been in male dominated spaces. I don't shy away from that. I'm, you know, I work in a male dominated space. That's the industry we serve. I don't really work with women. Even in the past, I worked in banking.

00:25:34:15 - 00:25:49:06
Manja
I've always picked industries where I can kind of get in there with the guys and, and hold my own with them. So in those senses, you do tend to be, I think, a little bit more assertive, aggressive and, just to keep up.

00:25:49:09 - 00:25:55:19
Lisa
You take those male rooms, you chose them because they felt more comfortable for you.

00:25:55:21 - 00:26:20:21
Manja
Yeah, I think I always yeah, I don't, I don't know, I've never really reflected too much on that. But they do feel comfortable. I do feel, I've always gotten along really well with men. Better than women. I don't talk about your typical things that women tend to talk about. I've never been one to sit around and I don't know.

00:26:20:21 - 00:26:46:11
Manja
I mean, I can talk about kids and education and all the things, but I love being in a room, talking about politics and kind of arguing about global economics. I mean, don't get me started, but I think the last conversation I had was like, let me tell you about the biz. All right. This book, blah, blah, blah, and this economy and central banking, like, I can get deep into economics and global, politics and things.

00:26:46:11 - 00:27:05:14
Manja
And I listen to that way more than anything else. So, I don't know, I think I'm gravitate. I've always gravitated a little bit more to, traditional masculine subjects, and I don't I don't shy away from that. I mean, and I work with skilled trades and trades unions. That's my client. So it's a very male dominated space.

00:27:05:17 - 00:27:08:06
Lisa
How did you move into that space?

00:27:08:09 - 00:27:29:29
Manja
Well, my dad is a carpenter. That's right. And he had a carpentry business all through my growing up years. And so I grew up in the shop. I loved hanging out in the shop with my dad and being around the woodworking. I also of another weird thing about me, I didn't have a TV when we grew up, so I read.

00:27:29:29 - 00:27:31:08
Lisa
It was such a blessing.

00:27:31:09 - 00:27:50:13
Manja
Now played my music, was out in the shop, baked, cooked like I just had this. Honestly, when you think about it, quite idyllic childhood. No, but we were very social. We were out all the time. My parents loved getting into the city. We'd like meet up with his musician friends and, you know, people from their past.

00:27:50:13 - 00:27:58:09
Manja
And we'd go to all the markets and Globe Cheese store, you know, like we were always out and about, but, you know, TV.

00:27:58:11 - 00:28:22:15
Lisa
So this is why you can have conversations that go deeper on topics most people are shying away from because you grew up probably in a lot of environments where you were having conversations with people with different opinions and you learned how to navigate that, whereas nowadays people aren't learning how to hold space for polarizing views and still be able to dialog like, we could disagree.

00:28:22:15 - 00:28:23:29
Lisa
But yeah, that.

00:28:23:29 - 00:28:45:29
Manja
Shocks me how people are. Just assume that one idea is the right one, and if you even can see somebody's side, like you must be a freak. And I'm like, no, actually, if you are open and receptive to seeing multiple perspectives and multiple sides and having empathy, even for somebody who you think is a horrible person, that is awesome.

00:28:46:01 - 00:29:13:13
Manja
Yeah. So my dad, he was a he was a carpenter. I grew up, really in an in, a culture that celebrated craftsmanship, beauty working with your hands, like, really fine detail. My dad was, still is actually a master carpenter. He's actually a historic restoration specialist, so he's, he works on, you know, some really beautiful buildings and master craftsman.

00:29:13:17 - 00:29:30:03
Manja
So I grew up in that. I worked summer jobs and things. So I did a lot of woodworking and and stuff, you know, with my hands on the jobs, I can still walk around and look at. I did that job and wow, that paint is held up after 25 years. Or, you know, I can really I love that it's so neat.

00:29:30:03 - 00:29:50:29
Manja
So I was never well, this actually pertains to my book. The book I'm writing is called Passing the Torch in the trades, and I have a whole section where I reflect on what's happened to the skilled trades industry. And I won't get too deep into that. That that'll be for another conversation. But I was never encouraged to get into a trade.

00:29:51:01 - 00:29:54:12
Lisa
I was going to ask you how to sew. Funny to trades.

00:29:54:14 - 00:29:54:28
Manja
With you.

00:29:54:28 - 00:30:02:22
Lisa
With you loving it and working with your hands, liking being around more of that masculine energy. It's really surprising to me that that was never okay.

00:30:02:22 - 00:30:21:04
Manja
Well, my research, because I had to do a lot of research for my book. I wanted to make sure that my assumptions were backed up by data. So when I was looking at historical trends from the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, I looked at, you know, political pressure, and I looked at education system because, you know, they go hand in hand.

00:30:21:04 - 00:30:47:09
Manja
So you've got media politics and, policy and also education all kind of working together to affect the way that society moves. Like those are the mechanisms. So in in the 80s, there was no encouragement for anybody to get into the trades. If you had, certain grades, you were you were pushed and even guidance counselor training, it taught them and compensated them to push people into universities and colleges.

00:30:47:16 - 00:31:11:29
Manja
We were moving into a knowledge economy, and so politicians stood at the podiums. They spoke about this. It's a no. It's a knowledge economy. We're a servant. We're moving into service based culture. And everybody was moving into tech. And so it was like everyone went to college in university and nobody was streamed into the into the trades. You could see a massive drop by the 90s in admission.

00:31:11:29 - 00:31:36:17
Manja
Enrollment into apprenticeship programs like really dipped. It's more than doubled or even in some cases higher now than it was in the 90s. So when I was in high school, nobody was being told to go into a trade. It was only like, no offense, but like the pot smoking skids out in the back that were encouraged to go in because they just figured they couldn't hack it in any other post-secondary.

00:31:36:20 - 00:31:56:26
Manja
And that is the reality. So we're now in a trade crisis. And because I had straight A's, literally, I was the top student in the school and I got a scholarship to university full ride. There was no way I was going into the trades. It was university or bust. And actually I wanted to be, a professional fiddle player.

00:31:56:26 - 00:32:00:23
Manja
I wanted to play for Shania Twain. That was actually my. My dream isn't that funny?

00:32:00:27 - 00:32:03:22
Lisa
Love it, I love it, you know? Me too. I,

00:32:03:24 - 00:32:09:04
Manja
Yeah, so I just there was. It wasn't even optional. Wasn't even offered so fast.

00:32:09:04 - 00:32:18:25
Lisa
Both my boys now are in trades. I'm still too young. Right? But one's a carpenter. One's a mechanic, I love it. Do you think we're moving out of the knowledge economy now with AI coming in?

00:32:18:29 - 00:32:43:19
Manja
Yeah. I do actually. My book has. It sort of goes, where did we come from? How did we get here? And then let's look at the next decade, because we're at a pivot point, a third of the the skilled trades workforce is retiring in the next five, six, seven years. A third 30%. That's a huge loss of, you know, those boomers who have like that tinkering mentality.

00:32:43:19 - 00:33:08:23
Manja
They've got that, they've been in the job their whole career. You know, you're losing a really solid base of knowledge and workers. So, yes, I do think we're swinging back in another direction. You can even see it politically. They're starting to invest a lot more in skilled trades development. There's money going into apprenticeship programs. We're realizing that it's a fairly safe bet against technology.

00:33:08:25 - 00:33:34:13
Manja
I, I will be a tool, no doubt, but it'll be more about helping find errors and reduce, risk and price more effectively and make things more efficient. It'll become a tool, but you're still going to need people who are working, repairing, you know, building. I think there will be some automation within the industry, you know, maybe robotic bricklaying or things like that.

00:33:34:13 - 00:33:57:14
Manja
But you're going to see you're going to still see a lot of humans, coming back into more of this hands on work that just can't be automated. So it's kind of interesting how we've just, you know, taken this huge batch of people who are now millennials a little bit Gen X, Gen Z, and it's like, oh, now they're all looking at a future where their world might just drop out from under them.

00:33:57:14 - 00:34:17:03
Manja
With AI. Yeah, it is kind of wild. It's a weird swing, but I'm thrilled to be part of the trades. And it was really when I started my business, a number of years ago that I, I went, I have to niche down, who do I really want to serve? Who do I really want to help? And the skilled trades just came to me and it was, my story.

00:34:17:03 - 00:34:21:00
Manja
It's it's in my book. So that's how I actually opened the book.

00:34:21:00 - 00:34:26:14
Lisa
Did you start with your dad and capturing his wisdom and knowledge?

00:34:26:16 - 00:34:46:28
Manja
Not really. I'm doing a little bit of that now, so he's reaching out to me when he has very unique projects that don't come up very often. And we're filming them, but not really. Now, one of the things my dad has done is he is he has mentored my youngest brother to the point where he's taking over the business.

00:34:46:28 - 00:34:55:24
Manja
So he has a Gen Z, you know, son who's he's been pouring into for the last 15 years, which is great.

00:34:55:24 - 00:34:57:23
Lisa
So his knowledge is passed on.

00:34:57:23 - 00:35:00:08
Manja
It is being passed on. It's just not documented.

00:35:00:11 - 00:35:17:22
Lisa
I think we're heading into the the decade where Soft skills, which is works great for me. Soft skills are going to be more valuable than knowledge. And I'm really I'm really glad my boys went into trade. And once you know, he's trying to get on with the fire department too. So that's a whole, you know, you had a husband who's a fireman.

00:35:17:24 - 00:35:21:26
Manja
Oh, actually, Dean was a police. Yeah. His twin brother was a fireman.

00:35:21:26 - 00:35:40:15
Lisa
So I was high risk. But again, he gets to choose his path. So I'm curious to know what shaped your early picture of success. Like, what does success mean to you? If we went back like 20 years, 30 years, how would you have defined it then versus now?

00:35:40:18 - 00:36:09:23
Manja
I would have defined it as a really high profile corporate job. But, you know, with the power suit and this was back when you wore pantyhose and pointy toed shoes and, I would have defined it as a really high powered job. Loads of travel. And just yeah, just being a major leader. So I would have thought it very much just an executive position.

00:36:09:25 - 00:36:31:21
Manja
I didn't really see family as being, a core, I mean, family as a core value, but I didn't really picture kids in their, And actually, I met my husband in high school, so we're high school sweethearts. And I think that really kind of changed some of my life trajectory because we ended up having kids pretty young.

00:36:31:21 - 00:36:53:11
Manja
I was in my 20s, I was actually about to write the Mcats because I was going to go to med school. Wow. And then I was like, oh, maybe I should have kids first. And I did, and then I'm glad because I actually wouldn't want to be a general practitioner, a medical doctor right now. But I love reading medical textbooks, so it wasn't all wasted.

00:36:53:13 - 00:36:57:24
Lisa
Interesting. So once you had your kids, is that when you launched your business?

00:36:57:26 - 00:37:00:24
Manja
Yes, because I was working in corporate, so I did

00:37:00:26 - 00:37:03:26
Lisa
Do you did head towards I did Direction of Success.

00:37:03:26 - 00:37:27:22
Manja
I did. So I actually worked for BMO Bank of Montreal and I was on, you know, executive track there, and I was in the corporate learning development. So I did a lot of leadership development, performance coaching, communication skills development. Because I was I was kind of the skill development person. I was the practice person because I was the music coach.

00:37:27:25 - 00:37:46:10
Manja
So I came to the bank and actually there were other professional musicians on our team, and that was how I got the job. I actually met a woman playing a gig, and she introduced herself. She was this amazing flute player, this PhD in education, just brilliant woman. And we were chatting and she said, oh, I work at the Club Med of Corporate training.

00:37:46:10 - 00:38:10:23
Manja
And I was like, what? So I inquired and I looked into it and she worked for Bmo's Institute for learning. So actually I got a job there, work the corporate life. And I'm so grateful for that time, because when you work for the creme de la creme and you have the best budget and all the resources and the smartest people that you're working with, you just set yourself up for massive success.

00:38:10:23 - 00:38:22:15
Manja
So when I did leave to start my own business, mainly because the kids were little and my husband's work was really stressful, I just knew so much from that corporate time.

00:38:22:18 - 00:38:44:24
Lisa
So how did you make the decision or what? What happened to make that switch? Because leaving, comfortable corporate job to start your own business is not what most people do. No. So when when did the corporate job start feeling good that it made sense to start your own business while raising three small children?

00:38:44:27 - 00:38:47:22
Manja
Well, honestly, it was ethics and integrity for me.

00:38:47:22 - 00:38:48:11
Lisa
Interesting.

00:38:48:11 - 00:39:13:26
Manja
And I probably shouldn't have said that while naming a brand, but I'll say that I had to do a big operational risk program. I was in charge of doing C-suite level training, and I knew that training wasn't the right, wasn't the right solution. I knew that we had to fix the tool, and I had the ideas to fix the tool, to properly assess major risk for every project coming through the bank.

00:39:13:26 - 00:39:33:03
Manja
That's what this was. So it was a it was a high profile, thing. And I said, I'm not doing the training. You don't need training, and none of these executives are going to do any training that I put in front of them. We actually need to change the tool. We can make this more intuitive and nobody would budge.

00:39:33:03 - 00:39:55:19
Manja
And I said, I quit. Because I'm like, I cannot pour eight, nine, ten months of my life into birthing this project that I don't believe in. So I'm a bit of a stubborn nut. I'm very principled and if I don't believe in something, you could drag me and I would not budge on it.

00:39:55:22 - 00:39:56:25
Lisa
Wow, I love that.

00:39:57:00 - 00:39:59:08
Manja
I'm a little bit of a.

00:39:59:11 - 00:40:05:23
Lisa
Is. So that's that. Definitely a moment that you must have felt both challenged and empowered.

00:40:05:26 - 00:40:29:19
Manja
I think I was just that stubborn and naive where I was like, I, I just am not doing this, I hate this, and oh my goodness, the backlash. I got from people. My parents didn't ever say a word like they don't. I think they just trust us to do what needs to be done. Yeah, they've never put pressure on, you know, pick a job with a pension like that kind of stuff never even occurred to my parents.

00:40:29:19 - 00:40:44:13
Manja
They're kind of hippies. My dad's a carpenter. My mom's a fashion designer. Stay at home mom. Like, they just were kind of outside of the loop anyways, so thankfully the pressure didn't come from there. But yeah, it was not, considered a wise move.

00:40:44:15 - 00:41:09:13
Lisa
It's an I've worked clients out of tenured jobs before, and I've heard the backlash because people really can't understand, like, why would you give this up? This is the dream. And that's, you know, that's the difference between some of us. We know that what we value is so profound that you have to follow those values. And I believe that so many people are living incongruent with their values.

00:41:09:15 - 00:41:18:27
Lisa
They're they're shoving their values under the rug for, you know, what they believe is safe, but they're sacrificing themself in the process.

00:41:18:29 - 00:41:22:14
Manja
So, I mean, make you sick? Literally sick.

00:41:22:18 - 00:41:35:14
Lisa
Exactly. And this is what I was gonna cost you in the pursuit of your success. What did it cost you? Emotionally? Physically? Energetically? What kind of prices? If you paid to create what what's here today?

00:41:35:17 - 00:42:01:07
Manja
Well, I think I think what I actually said to I sent a voice note to a friend the other day and I said, you know what? Right now I just need this one thing to be easy because I'm good at making everything a little bit uncomfortable all the time for everybody. Once things get comfortable and status quo, even for like two days, I'm going, okay, where are we going to shake it up?

00:42:01:09 - 00:42:19:00
Manja
And it's a bit destabilizing, I think, in some cases. And, right now we're in a position where I just needed to make a few decisions just to make things easy for a minute. I've kind of lost my train of thought with where, with where your question was, but I think the sacrifices I had to make was just.

00:42:19:03 - 00:42:38:24
Manja
And the emotions I, I had to just be like, okay, no matter what, we're going to figure this out. And I had to make some financial sacrifices. I mean, I went from a great salary to nothing to starting out. I had rental properties. I sold one so I could start my business and literally put that initial 50 grand into building it.

00:42:38:26 - 00:43:07:00
Manja
You know, I had to get uncomfortable with a lack of stability and security, and that was really hard because I didn't mind. But my husband that his his core value, he was a cop. Financial stability and security, security and stability. Our number one values for him. So for me to kind of rattle our family, cage was not comfortable for him and I had to kind of myself move through like it's okay that I'm challenging him in that and it's okay.

00:43:07:00 - 00:43:23:26
Manja
He can meet me where I am. And I also had to learn that a plan B is not a bad thing. That just is, you know, consider it because I would just be like, well, let's go, we'll figure it out. And no plan B, and that's just not how it was going to work in our family. So I had a lot of work to do.

00:43:23:26 - 00:43:53:03
Manja
Our marriage needed some work. We had to just head through the conflict and just tackle it. I do have a lot of support systems around me. As I started to grow the business with little kids and yeah, anyways, I started it in 2020, so there was a little bit of a span in there where I was doing freelance work, so I had a really good reputation and people just would call me and say, hey, we've got a project, can you do it?

00:43:53:03 - 00:44:09:14
Manja
So for a while there, I didn't have my business as it is today. I was basically just freelance. You know, when people would call me up, I would take a six, eight, nine month project. But yeah, 2020 January 2020 was when I started boost.

00:44:09:17 - 00:44:18:11
Lisa
Great timing. Great. Thank you. I love I love that you chose a man who actually provided you with the thing that you need most, which is that stability piece.

00:44:18:18 - 00:44:40:08
Manja
Well, I think God sent him my way because when you're 17, you don't know what the frick you're choosing. My mom the other day, I was like, mom, how could you have let me land on a guy at 17? And she's like, I know I had to pray about it and just give it to God because she's like, frig, you know, I'm in a very small town.

00:44:40:08 - 00:44:46:15
Manja
I meet this high school guy, and here I'm like, I told her within two months, I think I'm going to marry this guy. And I was.

00:44:46:15 - 00:45:06:09
Lisa
17. Wow. Oh, wow. Yeah. So what would need to change for you in your life to allow more ease instead of always having that hard edge, right. Because I love being uncomfortable. Like, that's a big thing for me, right? I think we grow in discomfort. But I think for many of us, the discomfort is actually comfortable for us.

00:45:06:12 - 00:45:18:12
Lisa
And the uncomfortable part is allowing more ease. Right. That's that's actually an edge for many of my many of the people that I work with. So I'm curious what that would look like for you.

00:45:18:14 - 00:45:40:25
Manja
Wow. Good question. I think I was considering this the other day, you know, in Gay Hendricks book, The Big Leap. I'll go back to that where he says, you can feel joy and you have to expand your capacity for joy. I'll replace that word with ease or contentment. I think sometimes when things feel good and content and I'm like, oh, okay, everything's chill.

00:45:40:28 - 00:46:05:12
Manja
Immediately, immediately my brain goes to, oh, I should really contact the architect to have him draft up that second dwelling on our property. It's like, man, yeah, chill. Drink your coffee, read a novel. Like I literally do not sit and watch a movie. Yeah, I have not sat and watched a sports game. Like, I just don't. I don't sit and do these things.

00:46:05:12 - 00:46:21:11
Manja
I'm like, I left a Jays game the other day and we're in the postseason. Whatever these this playoff thing is called. And, and I went home to listen to a sales webinar. I'm like, I cannot sit at this game like, I don't get it. I don't care. I feel like I'm wasting.

00:46:21:11 - 00:46:28:11
Lisa
My that is in your body because you're doing somatic work right now, right? Is actually doesn't feel safe for you.

00:46:28:13 - 00:46:29:16
Manja
Yeah, probably.

00:46:29:18 - 00:46:58:09
Lisa
He doesn't feel safe for you. And that's true for many women who are driven and ambitious. Right. Doing stuff feel safe. So as soon as there's nothing to do when we're in that place of ease, your nervous system actually has a response like this isn't okay for me. This isn't safe. It's a such a fascinating pattern. So it's so funny that so many of us has to learn how to chill out, because that's that's not how our nervous system is wired from years of patterning and childhood like, oh, yeah.

00:46:58:12 - 00:47:18:05
Manja
There's a million reasons it's not. And there's some things I mean, don't get me wrong, I can go on a vacation and get lost in ten novels and just chill and lay. And I love laying on the sand at the beach and having no timeline, like, I mean, I'm very I can chill, I can go for walks and and rest, but sitting and watching a movie hate it.

00:47:18:07 - 00:47:37:00
Manja
Watching a sports show, I'm like, this is awful. But I could sit with my eyes closed in a in an orchestral concert for three hours and just soak in the sound. So maybe it's just maybe it's just different things, but again, not normal. Like I've never really been able to just, like, feel the vibe.

00:47:37:02 - 00:47:59:07
Lisa
And I love that's what I love about every individual is so unique, right. We're like this, this perfectly imperfect, creation of all of our circumstances, and we get to spend our life if we choose it. Just being curious about who we are and what makes us tick without making anything wrong or bad or I'm never going to give up my drive.

00:47:59:07 - 00:48:12:28
Lisa
Our ambition, I love it. I love doing stuff. I love doing extraordinary things. And I applaud that in other people. And I always get curious about the parts of me that I'm like, oh, I don't, I don't, I don't know about that part. Yeah. And it just is what it is.

00:48:12:28 - 00:48:17:12
Manja
I'm trying to revive some hobbies right now that feel a little slower.

00:48:17:14 - 00:48:19:24
Lisa
Of that.

00:48:19:26 - 00:48:45:08
Manja
And, I've been horseback riding for a couple of years again. Now I'm doing, like, some paper craft meet up on a Monday night, and we literally, it takes me three hours to make a a crafting like a card with all the paper bits. And, and I'm just like, it's fun. It feels to me like it's it's just like, I don't know, you get lost in this process and orchestra and yeah, different things.

00:48:45:08 - 00:48:47:17
Manja
So I'm trying to revive some of those.

00:48:47:20 - 00:48:55:18
Lisa
So you're finding your peace and ease in the hobby, things that bring you joy. I love that you're horseback riding. You're going to do that for your birthday. I think you mentioned.

00:48:55:21 - 00:49:04:19
Manja
Well, yeah, that's my goal I love that's my goal. But, it's it's looking like I might have to do it on my own. Anyways. Any great horseback.

00:49:04:19 - 00:49:04:24
Lisa
Ride?

00:49:04:24 - 00:49:07:25
Manja
I want to go on a trip in summer. Let's do it.

00:49:07:27 - 00:49:19:07
Lisa
So when you think about your legacy and the wisdom that you want to leave behind, what do you hope people carry forward with your work?

00:49:19:10 - 00:49:21:02
Manja
That is a loaded question.

00:49:21:04 - 00:49:26:02
Lisa
The King. You get to take up space.

00:49:26:02 - 00:49:51:01
Manja
Yeah, I'm not totally sure what my legacy is going to be. I think it'll be with my kids, obviously. You know, teaching them to think critically, question, you know, behave in a way that's kind and. Right. That's huge. From my work, I think I'm creating a really interesting business that's going to have massive impact on the trades.

00:49:51:04 - 00:50:13:28
Manja
You know, you talked about soft skills. We've launched five new programs this year. They're all pretty much soft soft skills because, you know, the industry does need some help in getting those professional skills developed. I think that the AI work we're doing to just help this industry handle all of this knowledge and make it much more accessible for people is super cool.

00:50:13:28 - 00:50:28:19
Manja
So I think there's going to be some tangible things, but mostly I just believe it'll be in in the kids. And you know what? What I've been able to teach them and pass on and who knows what this planet is going to look like in 40 years, right?

00:50:28:20 - 00:50:30:23
Lisa
I think even like in three years, we're going.

00:50:30:23 - 00:50:39:25
Manja
To oh, I know, I just picture like, how old am I? Hopefully I live another 50 years at least. I'm like, wow. Yeah. What is it going to look like because.

00:50:39:25 - 00:50:54:05
Lisa
It's changing so fast now. So as we end, as we end the episode, I, I've got one more question that I want to ask you. If you could go back to the beginning of your career and whisper one truth to yourself, what would it be?

00:50:54:08 - 00:50:57:10
Manja
Be patient.

00:50:57:12 - 00:51:00:13
Lisa
Speaking my love language. So challenging.

00:51:00:18 - 00:51:05:28
Manja
That is my, Every time I journal, I just write at the top. Be patient.

00:51:06:01 - 00:51:06:18
Lisa
Love it.

00:51:06:25 - 00:51:08:23
Manja
You'll get there.

00:51:08:26 - 00:51:30:12
Lisa
This has been such a good conversation. Thanks for having me. Enjoyed. I really enjoyed having you on. I love talking to smart people about the cool things that are doing in the world. It just expands my perspective on life and what what's possible because I think I know a lot. And then I realize I know like nothing, I know nothing, so there's always so much to learn.

00:51:30:12 - 00:51:37:02
Lisa
So this is this is where I get my education. And it just it was such a pleasure to have you here. So thank you so much for being on.

00:51:37:05 - 00:51:38:18
Manja
Thank you.

00:51:38:21 - 00:51:50:26
Lisa
If my news story landed, it's because you recognize yourself in it. You're strong, capable. The one everyone turns to. You've built something impressive, but you're exhausted. You can't remember the last time something felt easy.

00:51:51:02 - 00:52:12:26
Lisa
And the idea of softening or allowing ease of not caring at all. It probably terrifies you, because doing it all feels safer than letting other people do it. But here's what nobody's telling you. Your strength isn't the problem. Your capability isn't the problem. The problem is that you learned a long time ago that being a burden wasn't safe.

00:52:12:29 - 00:52:43:29
Lisa
So you became the opposite. You became the rock, and now you're carrying the weight that was never yours to carry. The congruency audit is where we look at that gap between the success you've built on the outside and the exhaustion you're feeling on the inside. We'll identify the exact patterns keeping you stuck in over functioning, the childhood stories, driving your need to never be a bother and what's what it's going to take for you to finally create success that feels as good on the inside as it looks on the outside.

00:52:44:01 - 00:53:09:26
Lisa
This isn't about doing more or being better. This is about learning that ease is safe. That softening doesn't mean losing your edge or your ambition, and that you can be strong and allow yourself to be supported, that you can be capable and allow things to be easy. Book your congruency audit at Lisa Carpenter, aka Forward Slash Audit. This isn't about optimizing the version of yourself you built to survive.

00:53:10:03 - 00:53:16:06
Lisa
It's about creating congruence so the life you built doesn't just look good. It finally feels right.