EPISODE 340: Why Over-Functioning Is Keeping You Exhausted (And How to Stop Carrying What Isn’t Yours) with Ichel Francis

00:00:06:29 - 00:00:33:12
Lisa
You built success that looks damn good on the outside, but inside it's costing you your health, your relationships, your energy. And no matter how much you do, it never feels like enough. Welcome to Congruent. I'm Lisa Carpenter, the coach. High performers call when they can afford to burn it all down, but they can't keep living like this either.

00:00:33:14 - 00:00:58:24
Lisa
Here we rip off the mask of success and expose what's real. The patterns that you keep running, the price that you've paid, and how to build success that fuels you instead of empties you. Real success is agency. It's powerful self leadership to run your life instead of being run by it. To let your drive and your well-being finally work together.

00:00:58:27 - 00:01:08:28
Lisa
Because the real win is success. That actually feels good.

00:01:09:00 - 00:01:37:26
Lisa
You're successful and you've built something that matters. You've proven yourself over and over. But no matter how much you achieve, it probably never feels like enough. You might be exhausted and your body is not going to let you forget it, and you might be quietly wondering how much longer you can keep this up. Welcome to congruent. I'm Lisa Carpenter, and on this podcast is about what success actually cost you and what it takes to feel as good on the inside as things look on the outside.

00:01:37:28 - 00:01:59:09
Lisa
So today's guest is someone I've worked alongside for years as a coach, leader, and friend. Ichel Francis is a master coach and founder of the Moon Circle Movement. She blends spiritual depth with business strategy in a way that's both grounded and transformative. She works with visionary leaders and business owners who refused to choose between inner work and outer results.

00:01:59:11 - 00:02:20:07
Lisa
And she knows this work intimately because she's lived it. I also grew up watching her mother work herself to the bone to feel worthy of the wealth her father had created. Never buying herself the designer purse until she was diagnosed with terminal cancer and had only eight weeks to live. That purse sat beside her at home, never used.

00:02:20:09 - 00:02:43:16
Lisa
And that profound loss became the catalyst for how I will now define success not as material achievement or relentless doing, but as space expansion and freedom. We talk about the cost of over functioning and how to discern what's actually your responsibility versus what you've taken on. And the difference between surrender and avoidance. How to integrate intuition with structure.

00:02:43:16 - 00:03:04:05
Lisa
When you're a logical, systems oriented achiever, and what happens when you finally stop trying to fix everyone and let them walk through their own doors? If you've ever felt responsible for everything and everyone while running on fumes, or if you've been waiting to feel worthy of enough to finally enjoy what you built, this one's going to be for you.

00:03:04:07 - 00:03:06:05
Lisa
So let's dive in.

00:03:06:08 - 00:03:08:18
Lisa
Welcome, Ichel. I'm so glad you're here.

00:03:08:21 - 00:03:10:29
Ichel
Hello. So good to be here.

00:03:11:02 - 00:03:35:02
Lisa
This is going to be an amazing conversation because, you know, you and I have walked alongside each other for years as coaches. Leaders and women building real businesses while navigating our very, very real lives. And what I value about you. There's many things I value about you, but how grounded your work is, and it's really grounded, even though it's very, also intuitive.

00:03:35:05 - 00:03:54:03
Lisa
So I wanted to have you here to explore how you define success now and how it's evolved. So before we dive into that, I'm very curious. When you hear the word success. Now, what does it actually mean to you in your body?

00:03:54:05 - 00:03:59:14
Ichel
Well, as I'm you what your podcast is about, I have been pondering this for some time.

00:03:59:18 - 00:04:00:16
Lisa
I love it.

00:04:00:18 - 00:04:26:00
Ichel
Because I was thinking about like even what success? How I define that in my teenage 20s versus how I do now at my age, and even how much it's changed probably in the last 5 or 6 years for me, what success looks and feels like. So success now at this current season that I am in is very much about space.

00:04:26:03 - 00:04:36:21
Ichel
It's about expansion. It's about freedom and being having the ability to do and feel all of those things.

00:04:36:24 - 00:05:04:15
Lisa
I love that. So how would you describe success in your earlier years? Because I know you, like me, went through a lot of years of overdoing over functioning, chasing. And you also have a bricks and mortar business as well. So we're not just talking about your, your coaching practice, but when you think back on when you started your career or when you were first thinking about being successful, how would you have defined it then?

00:05:04:18 - 00:05:30:03
Ichel
It was much more materialistic, and at the same time, I would fight myself for wanting it to be materialistic because I thought that made me a shallow person. And so it was. It was such a fight internally because I had these goals and aspirations of like I wanted a certain lifestyle, but then it was like, oh, well, if I want that lifestyle, what kind of who am I to want that?

00:05:30:04 - 00:05:52:10
Ichel
What kind of person is that? So it was no wonder I didn't even create that success in those early years, because I was fighting myself to have it. So there was like one foot in, one foot out energy. It's like, oh, but I want this financial success to build a foundation. But then that makes me a really icky, yucky person for wanting those things.

00:05:52:10 - 00:05:57:21
Ichel
So I'm going to pull back from wanting those things. So it was it was like one step forward, two step backwards.

00:05:57:23 - 00:06:13:05
Lisa
That's so interesting. So where did you learn those definitions of success? On the one hand, it's like success is about money and wanting these things. But then where else did you learn that, at the same time, it wasn't okay to want those things or that would make you a bad person?

00:06:13:07 - 00:06:42:15
Ichel
The interesting duality of my parents. So like my father, was much more focused on financial material success and what that meant to him because he grew up really poor. So he had these aspirations of like, I want to buy this for my wife. When I'm successful, I'll drive this kind of car. I live in this kind of house, whereas my mom had more of a almost like religious type upbringing.

00:06:42:18 - 00:07:09:11
Ichel
So there would be a lot of her good. And even being around, having parents that were entrepreneurs, seeing other people that had wealth, a lot of them were not nice people. And I didn't like how they behaved. So I didn't like how they would treat like stuff in restaurants and people in service to them. Their behavior from the way I was viewing it wasn't making them nice people, if you like.

00:07:09:13 - 00:07:26:17
Ichel
So it was always this juxtaposition of, well, you can have success and be wealthy, but if you're wealthy, it means you're this. And if you're wealthy, it means you're not a nice person, it means you're not humble. And then, of course, add on the like. Spiritual people can't have wealth. And it was a mask.

00:07:26:20 - 00:07:30:13
Lisa
Did you did your dad actually create wealth in his business.

00:07:30:15 - 00:07:45:08
Lisa
Yeah he did, he did, he did. So how did but then your mom had the opposing views of that. So how was she able to receive as your dad started to bring more wealth into the business and into the family. How did your mom receive that. Like what did you witness growing up?

00:07:45:11 - 00:08:11:02
Ichel
I saw her working really hard to, kind of accept it. It's like, oh, well, I can have this wealth because I'm working such long hours and working myself to the bone kind of thing. So therefore, I'm allowed to have this and also, her accepting it was supporting my dad's goal and dreams, so for her to push it away would have been to say no to what he aspired to have.

00:08:11:04 - 00:08:30:28
Lisa
Oh, that's so fascinating. So she moved into patterns of like, I'm going to work hard to be worthy and deserving of this, while at the same time never really feeling worthy and deserving of it. So you grew up with this real juxtaposition of like, ways of being. So how did that how did you reconcile that for yourself?

00:08:31:00 - 00:08:51:22
Ichel
Well, I had some like really profound examples of it. So my mom, was diagnosed with cancer, really in the late stages of it. Like she had none of us had any idea she was even sick. So from the time she was diagnosed to when she left, the planet was actually less than eight weeks. It was like really, really quick.

00:08:51:23 - 00:09:16:01
Ichel
Wow. And so what I saw what like and observing and being with her during those eight weeks was some of those patterns come into real life. So she was a woman that would never even though she had the funds in her bank, she would never buy herself designer label like purses, shoes, clothes, anything like that. And she always said, oh, I just don't want them.

00:09:16:03 - 00:09:33:25
Ichel
But then what happened when she got this diagnosis was she went out and she bought herself a designer purse. So it was really interesting to observe because it's like, oh, so you did always want the thing, but you will wait either, you know, we didn't actually have the conversations about it. So I'm just like putting words in her mouth, really.

00:09:33:27 - 00:09:51:00
Ichel
But either it meant that she was waiting, as you said, waiting to be worthy of receiving it or she didn't want to do it. Because what would people think if she had that type of purse? So what was really sad is she went out and she bought this purse and we were like, yeah, you know, like, get it?

00:09:51:01 - 00:10:15:22
Ichel
You know what I'm saying? It was like a designer purse and not talking like thousands and thousands. I'm talking like a couple of hundred. So it was still like humble and like through her viewpoints. But the really sad thing was like, from that point, she just got progressively sicker. So she never went out with this person, just sat next to her at home while she was sick and became sicker.

00:10:15:25 - 00:10:37:21
Ichel
So it was such a like such a visual and very, very profound example for me of like, what are you doing? Like with money? How are you defining success? What are you doing this for? So that one day, you know, when you're literally told you have weeks left to live, you'll then go out and find yourself worthy of spending the money and stuff.

00:10:37:27 - 00:11:08:00
Ichel
So it really changed. Like how I viewed even investing money. Spending money, how I felt about that and what it meant about me. So it's it's a rotten way to get an example in your life, right? I would not would not want it for myself or wish it on anyone else. But there were so many really profound examples of that in her final weeks that made me realize, oh, she did really want these things for herself all along, or she didn't see us off as worthy.

00:11:08:00 - 00:11:18:07
Ichel
And now, because it's like there's no right, there's there's no time left now you have to make a decision. She went and chose certain things like that.

00:11:18:10 - 00:11:23:25
Lisa
So that was really the catalyst for how you wanted to define your relationship with wealth. Is that what I'm hearing?

00:11:23:27 - 00:11:32:02
Ichel
Yes. And it really changed, how I wanted to assist other women in doing it as well.

00:11:32:04 - 00:11:39:26
Lisa
Okay. What other illusions were shattered for you in watching your mom pass?

00:11:39:28 - 00:12:00:01
Ichel
I think this, one is, like, work really hard, and then you'll retire and you'll enjoy it. And she never even got to retirement, so that was shattered as well. And it's like, what if you show you've got to work and everything? But what if you actually enjoy it now? Like, what are you waiting for? Because none of us know how much time we've got, right?

00:12:00:03 - 00:12:18:03
Ichel
None of us have the crystal ball. Unless, you know, unless you're in an incredible show. I'm going to soon. But I don't have those skills. I don't know about you. I do not know. I do not know. Like when. When that day will come. So I don't know if it's in five years or 50 years. So what are we doing when we're waiting?

00:12:18:06 - 00:12:26:22
Ichel
And like, what are we actually waiting for? Is there a specific day, a time, an hour that you go, okay, now you get to enjoy your stuff? Yeah.

00:12:26:25 - 00:12:36:02
Lisa
How many years did it take you to unravel your patterns of overworking and over functioning? After watching your mom do that for so many years?

00:12:36:04 - 00:13:00:24
Ichel
Oh gosh, a lot. I would say 5 to 10 years. You know, I still discover things in myself now I'm like, oh, what is that? Where does that come from? Oh, okay. I see what that is. You know, I'm I'm constantly evolving, constantly changing. I'm never I'm never going to be like 100%. Oh, there I am. You know, I made it like there's no procrastination or perfectionism left in me at all, you know?

00:13:00:28 - 00:13:05:29
Ichel
Right. Like, every, every day is a learning day. I'm always seeing different patterns of myself.

00:13:06:01 - 00:13:25:01
Lisa
Yeah, it's it's amazing these things that we pick up when we're young and then we don't even recognize often that we're living out our parents patterns because they're just it's just what, you know, you don't know any different until you have an opportunity to see things different. So I really see your mom passing is such a massive catalyst for you.

00:13:25:03 - 00:13:53:25
Lisa
So I wanted to talk a little bit. We're going to switch directions a little bit because I wanted to talk about, how we distinguish like intuition versus bypassing because this is part of your wheelhouse. So I know a lot of people confuse intuition and surrender with stepping back from responsibility, which you and I both know that's not true, but how do you define personal responsibility now?

00:13:53:27 - 00:14:01:03
Ichel
I think in the context of like, business. And for me personally.

00:14:01:06 - 00:14:37:12
Ichel
It's knowing like when there's just I've just got to get stuff done rather than going, oh, I don't really feel in tune with that right now. Like I know, oh, I know what I'm like kidding myself, right? I know the difference. And I think we all do. If we're honest. There's there's a difference between, like, I think for a long time, especially when I took so much on and I was really up the levels or in burnout and my phrase for at least a year was I don't have the bandwidth for this right now.

00:14:37:14 - 00:14:56:29
Ichel
But that was basically a get out of jail free card for absolutely everything I didn't want to deal with. So whether it was something in my relationship, whether it's something with my children, whether it was finances, business, anything, it's like I'm doing so much right now, can't you see? And someone would bring me a problem or maybe hold a camera and go, wouldn't you like to look at this?

00:14:56:29 - 00:15:13:15
Ichel
And I'd be like, let me stop you, right? I don't have the bandwidth for this right now. And to start with, it was true. And then after a while, I was like, yeah, I think I'm probably using this a little too much because it's, you know, the thing with being a coach is you end up coaching yourself constantly.

00:15:13:15 - 00:15:36:20
Ichel
So it's like, and when will you have the bandwidth to deal with this? Like at what point will you know you have I'll do it. So then I just had to call myself out and really, really get real with it and stop shirking the responsibilities that I had to face because as well, one thing with me is that it's it's a dangerous combination.

00:15:36:20 - 00:16:04:06
Ichel
I am a Sagittarius, and I'm also a type seven on the Enneagram, so that basically means I run towards pleasure, adventure, fun, all the all the fun times don't bring me any problems, pessimism. And like I'm a glass half full girl all the way, but what? That also means is it's very difficult for me to sit in discomfort, so I will move away from it all the time.

00:16:04:06 - 00:16:36:11
Ichel
So a phrase like I don't have the bandwidth for it right now means that I just got to stay in my happy place, even if it doesn't look like a happy place, it's still moving away from that discomfort, and that's been one of the hardest things for me to sit with is like when I come across an emotion I don't like or a situation and actually sit with it, not run away, not do something to change direction or just do a thousand other things is just to sit there in that discomfort.

00:16:36:11 - 00:16:37:14
Ichel
It's horrible.

00:16:37:17 - 00:17:01:27
Lisa
I know, and that's a learned thing. And I think that that's why we've become such good friends, because that's one of my skill sets. I, I've often wondered if I'm like, stop running towards discomfort. Lisa. So the universe invites me in. But that has never been my M.O. to run towards pleasure. I've had to actually learn that, and being in discomfort became a real comfort zone for me.

00:17:02:00 - 00:17:23:25
Lisa
So opening myself up to more pleasure and letting the glass be half full like I had to, I had to learn that I think I've always been an optimistic person, but it was just chaos became chaos and suffering just became such a set point for me. So then, you know, being with my emotions around that, of course, that's what I've worked on throughout the years.

00:17:23:25 - 00:17:32:18
Lisa
So when you're an intuitive, how would you describe self leadership from that perspective?

00:17:32:21 - 00:17:56:00
Ichel
Oh great question. It's, I guess, a place of trust and surrender, and listening to myself and not allowing anybody else's noise to come in. Because when you're in leadership, there's always going to be people going, don't do that, do this. Yes, you've had success so far, but that was just a fluke. You were just lucky.

00:17:56:05 - 00:18:17:15
Ichel
It's not going to be so, you know, there's always going to be these voices telling you stuff. And when there's so much noise in your head, you can't hear your own true intuition. So for me, it's it's making sure that I separate that noise from myself and really recognize where my own voice is in it and not listening to the noise of the world outside and everybody else's opinions.

00:18:17:22 - 00:18:22:24
Lisa
I really love that. How would you define surrender?

00:18:22:26 - 00:18:46:18
Ichel
Partly is sitting in the discomfort of things is not having to bounce back to something like to my set point. So like how you were saying your set point became the familiarity of discomfort? My set point, likewise, was the familiarity of like happiness. Like, let's go. Like, you know, there's always a bright side. Now, sometimes there isn't sit in the dark side.

00:18:46:20 - 00:18:49:18
Lisa
Right. So you were using avoidance as a pattern.

00:18:49:20 - 00:18:50:27
Ichel
Absolutely right.

00:18:51:00 - 00:19:11:15
Lisa
So surrender is is literally allowing yourself to just be present to what is. Yeah. And that takes practice you know. And this is a thing surrender isn't about giving up. I think when a lot of people hear that word they think about like you know waving the white flag. And it really isn't about giving up. It's just simply about handing it over and saying, this is where I am today.

00:19:11:18 - 00:19:23:19
Lisa
And that doesn't mean that tomorrow is going to be the same. Tomorrow could be totally different, but I'm just going to be present and accepting and surrender to what is here right now so I can hear myself and make decisions from this place.

00:19:23:21 - 00:19:50:15
Ichel
So yeah, there's no like letting go of control and surrender. Yeah, just letting things be the way they are. And I think as well, you know, and I know you speak a lot on rest. And, you know, I think people get confused with surrender and rest that they're passive, that there's nothing there's no life in it, but they're not, you know, that actually active, which would sounds kind of crazy, right?

00:19:50:15 - 00:20:11:29
Ichel
The rest is active. But there's things being born in those places. It's not like it's just it's not numbing out. It's not just white noise. It's not emptiness. It's creating a space that things can be born again in there. So it's never passive. This there's growth even inside that surrender in that rest.

00:20:12:02 - 00:20:33:12
Lisa
I agree. I remember the first time I had a coach say to me, or it was one of my counselors back in the day and she said, Lisa doing nothing is doing something. And I was like, pardon me, I need you to repeat that again, because I just couldn't wrap my brain around it because I was really working inside this kind of machine archetype where it was about doing and productivity and like, let's go.

00:20:33:19 - 00:20:52:27
Lisa
And I didn't see any value in rest yet. Now I see rust is such a massive success strategy because it is in the non doing that you create the space for the things to come in. So I love that you. I love that you said that. So how would you if somebody said to you, well I'm going to ask you the question.

00:20:52:28 - 00:21:12:05
Lisa
Then you can answer it. And the, the listeners will hear, how do you discern intuition from fear? Because I think a lot of people get confused with like, how do I know it's my intuition, right? We want to get into our brains. Like, how do I how do I know it's my intuition? Versus how do they know that it's just simply fear?

00:21:12:08 - 00:21:34:11
Ichel
Yeah, I think it's different for everybody. Like you'll learn over time. The more you practice it and the more you surround it, the more you'll learn how you receive it in your body. You know, I always say like, excitement and fear kind of feel the same, same way, you know, you get the butterflies in your stomach. You're like, you know that?

00:21:34:11 - 00:21:56:18
Ichel
Get that ooh in your stomach and stuff. So those two emotions for me are always quite close. But what I always do is return back to my body rather than allowing myself to go into my head. Because if it's fear, you'll find that the thoughts will run away, that it's like, you know, like a runaway train on a on a train track gets it.

00:21:56:25 - 00:22:11:10
Ichel
It won't just be like, is this fear? It'll be like, but what if this happens? And what if that happens? And then that's going to happen, and then it's going to be a catastrophe. And then the whole world is set on fire, and I'll lose my business, and I'll be homeless and my children will die. And it's like, okay, we're in fear now, you know?

00:22:11:13 - 00:22:28:13
Ichel
Whereas if it's intuition, it's much slower. It's much kind of softer. It's much kinder. So. So it lands differently with me. It lands differently in my body. There's a softness to it. There's not that like speed that fear has.

00:22:28:15 - 00:22:50:03
Lisa
Yeah, you're right, I've never really thought about it that way. But I have said before that and I'm sure you've heard me say this, that like your higher self is never an asshole. So like, your intuition literally wants the best for you, right? It's trying to nudge you towards, you know, where you want to go. I think one of the, the things for me is learning to act on that intuition, because I can take the intuitive hit.

00:22:50:03 - 00:23:10:17
Lisa
And then I've been notorious in the past for then like the intuitive hit comes in and then fear comes in around back there and then starts to tell me why it's not a good idea. And sometimes there's very logical reasons why it's not a good idea. So it's been really trying to distinguish like, yeah, but what, what what if.

00:23:10:23 - 00:23:32:07
Lisa
So for me in 2026 I'm learning to my practice this year is like when I get a hit on whatever it is, can I act on it before the fear kicks in? Can I take action on it before? Like I stop myself as a way of teaching myself? So my practice, right when we talk about practicing intuition, and I'd like to hear how you teach people to do this.

00:23:32:07 - 00:23:53:09
Lisa
But for me, what I'm doing is when the hit comes in, taking action so I can build evidence that my intuition, I'm going to say, 99% of the time is going to send me in the right direction. All right. That's my practice. So how do you teach people how to practice honing in their intuition? Because it does seem like this.

00:23:53:09 - 00:23:58:12
Lisa
Like kind of airy fairy like, how do we practice intuition?

00:23:58:14 - 00:24:26:06
Ichel
Well, I've heard people say, the way that they would ask it was they would always say to themselves, like, is this, is this to the benefit of my highest good or not? Like, what does my highest self want? And the problem I have with that is it's always going to be a yes, because, oh, your highest self always wants you to have the experience because you're going to learn something from it.

00:24:26:08 - 00:24:46:09
Ichel
Is it the fastest way for me to be? Probably not. Is it the smoothest way? Maybe not, but you're going to learn a lot of lessons along the way, so I don't actually like asking it that way, because I know how it's going to go, because my highest self is like, sure, let's do this. We're going to learn so many lessons.

00:24:46:14 - 00:24:51:06
Ichel
You're going to grow and evolve so much, and it's like the worst year of your life, right?

00:24:51:06 - 00:24:55:03
Lisa
But of course, now I'm afraid for my 2026.

00:24:55:05 - 00:25:17:13
Ichel
Everything's Madison. It's all here for you to learn and grow. Don't be scared, Lisa. It's going to be a but I seriously, I take it like, completely back to basics, because I think the worst thing with when somebody has mistrusted or not listened to that intuition for so long, it is a trust issue. Yeah. So imagine if you had a friend or a business advisor.

00:25:17:13 - 00:25:36:23
Ichel
Your business coach was like, I think, you know, like looking at your metrics and your data, this is the best course of action. You were like, no. And then they're like, okay, well, what about this? No. And they gave you like 5000 ideas in the year and every single one you went, no. Like, there's going to be a huge breach of trust between you and that business coach on both sides.

00:25:36:23 - 00:26:06:17
Ichel
So part of getting familiar with your intuition again is just that trust. So I always start off and it's interesting because some people even overthink this. But start off with like when you open your closet, which color blouse or shirt or dress or whatever jumps out at you first, whether, and where, you know, you're not using your intuition as a say, it's like, okay, I see a blue dress, I'm going to wear that.

00:26:06:17 - 00:26:22:28
Ichel
And then you go, but which person will I put with that? That how will I accessorize it? Shall I wear a hat? Is it cold outside? And then all the thoughts come in. It's like, that's not intuition. Your intuition was go with that color, go with that color. But I've given this to clients before and I'm like, how did it go?

00:26:22:28 - 00:26:43:24
Ichel
Did you open your closet? And it's, well, the night before, I took two colors out and I laid them there on the bed and I'm like, you know, it's like overthinking intuition, but but it's not to like, judge anyone on it because the longer you have mistrusted the it, the harder or rather like the longer it's going to take you to get back there.

00:26:43:24 - 00:27:05:29
Ichel
So it's trusting. Like, what do I want to eat today? Rather than like, what are the macros? What did I eat yesterday? And it's like, what does my body actually want right now? Does my body want rest or does my body want to go for a run? And like just starting to use all of those things with intuition, like from the simplest, smallest things like that?

00:27:06:02 - 00:27:19:00
Ichel
Don't start like this one. I would say don't start on the should I move to a new international destination? Intuition. It's like, yeah, maybe start with like the shirts list first.

00:27:19:00 - 00:27:45:17
Lisa
I agree with that. So what I'm really hearing in all of this is that intuition really is just about self-trust. I know for a lot of the men and women that I work with, that's something they've struggled with because they've spent, you know, they're in high positions. They're doing amazing things in the world. Yet when it comes down to asking them, like where they would rank themselves from 1 to 10 in terms of self-trust, most of them will only put a 6 or 7, which I find really fascinating.

00:27:45:20 - 00:28:07:00
Lisa
So these are smart people in the world for anybody listening, right. Like this ability to trust ourselves. I think so many things have happened in our lives since we've grown up. That strips that away. And this conversation is really meant to help you. Like, what does that look like to to build that up again. And it it does come down to the simplest things like, what do I want to eat, what do I want to wear?

00:28:07:06 - 00:28:24:26
Lisa
And just going with the first thing. So I really love that. Such a simple and easy way to go. Okay, so you don't just teach intuition, you also have a bricks and mortar business. You run two different businesses, you've got your coaching business online, and then you've got your tassel business, which I'd love to hear more about that.

00:28:24:29 - 00:28:41:12
Lisa
So you're not just running your business on intuition. Knocks are running your business on structure. So can you talk a little bit about how how the intuition and structure piece fits together and how that helps you define success?

00:28:41:12 - 00:29:10:23
Ichel
Now, I love this because I'm the first one that will say, like, I get. So again, if we're going to talk like Enneagram types and all this, all these things, I'm also an INTj, which, you know, like we love structure and systems and process and predictability and all these things so as to use your frame. This I have range like I have huge range with all the things so I can quite happily.

00:29:10:26 - 00:29:34:08
Ichel
And somebody once told me that this was impossible and I was like, no, because I'm living proof that it is. I can happily have one foot in the visionary corner and one foot in an integrator corner. So I can set up systems, processes, all the things that need needs to run something smoothly. But then at that point, I have no interest in actually running the processes and systems.

00:29:34:11 - 00:29:50:07
Ichel
It's the creativity of building that that interests me. And then I'll hand that off to somebody else on the team to actually do the day to day running of it. But one of the things that I love to do is like, look at stuff and go like, why is it done that way? Oh, because it's always been done that way.

00:29:50:09 - 00:30:21:21
Ichel
Oh, well, let's change it. You know, I'm always looking like problem solving within that. So to me, you've got to be creative. You've got to be out of the box because you're looking for stuff that's never been seen before. So there's that part of your intuitiveness and your creativity, but you're applying it into like a business which has structure and process and systems and has all the all the things that it's needed and the data and metrics for it to run smoothly.

00:30:21:23 - 00:30:46:23
Ichel
So I love to mix up the two together, because what most people do, it's like we have like logistics and logical stuff over here in this camp, and they never cross over with the creative camp over here. And I'm like, but what if I mix them both together? What would that create? So I like how fun doing that, because to me it defines a different level of success.

00:30:46:23 - 00:31:08:18
Ichel
Again, doing things that have never been done before are things that excite me as well. And when somebody tells me like, you can't do that or that's not possible or that won't work, it's like, okay, watch me and I will find a way to prove that it can be done, because I honestly believe that all things are possible.

00:31:08:20 - 00:31:22:09
Ichel
Everything is possible. Everything has a solution. Every single problem has a solution. It just hasn't been found yet. So I love the creativity and kind of the fun and adventure in that, in discovering those things.

00:31:22:11 - 00:31:42:09
Lisa
You are such a unique combination. I do not love systems and structure and I've had to learn to love them. But setting them up, I will never love that will always be outsourced to someone else because it's just not. I mean, any time I try and set up a system or structure, there has to be systems and structures for the structure, right?

00:31:42:09 - 00:31:58:20
Lisa
Like I will have the folder inside the folder inside the folder. Like I will become so organized that it's disorganized. Now. So that is just that is not me at all. So it's so interesting that you're such a unique combination, and that's what's created the success that you have in both of your businesses.

00:31:58:23 - 00:32:18:29
Ichel
So I mean, I didn't know, like full disclosure, I didn't even know how to create a spreadsheet until I was about 45 years old. Because I've never done it. I would come up with the ideas of the things that needed to go into the spreadsheet, but then I'd hand it off to somebody else to create. So then there was came a time when I had to make my own for some personal thing, and I was like, can somebody help me?

00:32:18:29 - 00:32:30:10
Ichel
I don't what are these tabs? I'm like, how do you get to the point you are in business and not know how to create a spreadsheet? And I was like, darling, I pay people to create spreadsheets for me, it's.

00:32:30:13 - 00:32:51:05
Lisa
You know, it's so humbling for me every single day. Because even though I'm proud of the business that I've grown as, you're proud of the business that you've grown. And I think what many people don't see behind this, behind the scenes of success, is that we really don't like. We know a lot, and there's way more that we don't know.

00:32:51:08 - 00:33:13:11
Lisa
And there's I've had to really, put my ego aside and ask questions. That part of me is like, let's say you're running a business. You should know these things and I don't because I've never I've never had to learn it. Right. There's so much around creating success that is just figure it out as you go. Think that's and then you need to figure it out.

00:33:13:11 - 00:33:35:15
Lisa
Right. So it's it's never success for me is also looks like, oh, I'll probably never have this figured out because every next level requires a new version of me. And that new version doesn't know what she doesn't know yet. And it's always so humbling. So you are teaching women to work with, lunar and seasonal cycles without outsourcing their power to them?

00:33:35:18 - 00:33:42:17
Lisa
It's fair to say, how do you hold that rhythm without having the rigidity around it?

00:33:42:19 - 00:33:44:05
Ichel
What do you mean by the rigidity?

00:33:44:12 - 00:34:02:06
Lisa
Well, I think sometimes we can I'm going to follow the moon cycles. And so that means on this day I can't do this, this or this. Where do you know what I mean? Like, we can get so caught in when we're working with different cycles and seasons that they mean this and there's no deviating outside of it.

00:34:02:06 - 00:34:09:04
Lisa
So that's what I mean about how you can create rhythm without rigidity within those cycles. What does that look like?

00:34:09:06 - 00:34:34:13
Ichel
Again, I think it goes to the self-trust and the learning about yourself that that remembering who you are piece. Because even when we look at moon cycles, say a full moon, that is going to affect you differently to how it affects me, and then the astrological aspects that you'll have present in all your houses, different to mine. So even each moon will affect people differently.

00:34:34:16 - 00:34:54:00
Ichel
So like for me, for me, the universe has the last laugh because it's like, oh, you think you're going to be rigid? Yeah, I'm going to change it all now. Because like, I always encourage people to like keep moon diaries like track. How does the full moon affect you? Do you feel energized? Do you feel lethargic, you know, and track it.

00:34:54:00 - 00:35:10:09
Ichel
And then you start seeing patterns and you're like, oh, I see on full moons, I need to rest more. I need to like, drink more water and take my time and not work out and not work. And do you know, just sit on the on the sofa under a blanket, watch Netflix or whatever, and then it will flip.

00:35:10:13 - 00:35:32:04
Ichel
And then suddenly on a full moon, you'll be really energized and want to do all the things. And it's like, what in the world? So I do feel like the universe does have the last laugh with that, because whenever you do get too rigid, whenever you do get to set in your ways, one way or another, it will find a way of flipping it upside down.

00:35:32:06 - 00:35:52:08
Ichel
So like for me, it's kind of like change is always coming, right? Change is always happening. People are like, oh, I don't like change. I don't want to do that because I don't like too much change in my life. And it's like, well, change is happening right now, whether you like it or not. The one constant we have is change is always, always happening.

00:35:52:10 - 00:36:19:11
Ichel
The difference is, what kind of change do you want to invite in your life? Do you want to invite chaotic change that you have no control over? Do you want to be the person that creates the change? Do you want to be the person that sees change coming and knows how to respond to it? So even like with that, with the conversation about change, it's the same application on all of these cycles.

00:36:19:11 - 00:36:42:12
Ichel
There is no rigidity. And if you think there is, you're going to get slapped back to reality any moment now, because the universe will have its way of flipping it all upside down. I mean, that's what I learned. I was a a total control freak, like a, like control freak about everything until this happened with my mom. Right?

00:36:42:12 - 00:37:07:27
Ichel
Until she got her diagnosed diagnosis and and left the planet. And then in that process again, I let there's no control. There's no control over anything. I thought I knew everything, like I thought I had life planned out. I knew what I was going to do. I had different like five year goals, ten year goals. My house was like pristine, like I worked out and I ate perfectly.

00:37:07:27 - 00:37:28:28
Ichel
Like everything was just just so and then this came like, blindside me out of nowhere. And I was like, there's no control. So even though I thought I was rigid and I was rigid within my systems and stuff, the universe was like, oh yeah, let me show you chaos. And I know you've got a flavor of this in your own life.

00:37:29:00 - 00:37:47:27
Ichel
So if you believe there's rigidity, the universe is going to show you sooner or later. There is nothing because rigidity is just that same as control. It's not trying to compartmentalize everything, put things in boxes so that we can make sense. But we're living in a nonsensical world.

00:37:47:29 - 00:38:14:23
Lisa
Isn't that the truth? I think if you all you have to do is go on Instagram to know that, okay, so congruence or alignment. Some people use the word alignment. I use the word congruence. It's not about softness or opting out of life. But I'm curious what you see. As you know, in, in a woman who is fully congruent with herself, what does that look like?

00:38:14:25 - 00:38:34:05
Ichel
To me, that's authenticity, like holding firm to your values, what your values are. And again, these might change. You know, it depends what season you know, your values to when you were 20 years old, compared to when you're 50 years old are going to be quite different. But it's being like authentic and standing up for that. Like not.

00:38:34:07 - 00:38:53:26
Ichel
So another thing I used to do was I would say I was a chameleon, like I would change, so I would be this version of myself, like in a corporate setting and this version of myself at home, this version of myself with friends, this, you know, it was like all of these different. And I would I would just say be different versions of myself everywhere.

00:38:53:26 - 00:39:09:13
Ichel
And that was so exhausting. Until one day I was like, do you know what? I'm just going to be me. I'm going to be me everywhere. If it bothers people in the, you know, like in the corporate, the brick and mortar setting, whatever, I can't do this anymore. And it came to that point where I just couldn't do it anymore.

00:39:09:15 - 00:39:28:10
Ichel
So for me, being congruent is that it's being who you are everywhere, not apologizing for it. Not like going, oh, I'll make myself small in this room so people don't feel uncomfortable. But I'll shine brighter over here because people know who I am. It's like, no, just be who you are everywhere.

00:39:28:12 - 00:39:35:20
Lisa
So what things do you think need to become non-negotiable for people in order to live a life that feels congruent for them?

00:39:35:22 - 00:40:00:19
Ichel
Again, I would definitely say your highest value is being really focused on what that is, and then from that, you'll know you'll will and won't tolerate, you know, like like your your red flags like, absolutely not. I'm not doing this. It actually makes life a lot easier because decision making is so much easier, you know? And again, preach to the choir.

00:40:00:19 - 00:40:20:00
Ichel
I know you know all of this because it's like your values, your habits, your commitments, your responsibilities. You already know the answer before somebody asked a question. So it's really easy because you don't have to go into that. Do I don't I should, I shouldn't I maybe I will, maybe I won't because it's just like hell. Hell no.

00:40:20:01 - 00:40:31:19
Ichel
Hell yeah. Straight away. So it's it's a much simpler life. It's a much easier life. It's a life with more energy. It's a life with more life. Because you know who you are.

00:40:31:21 - 00:40:54:07
Lisa
Yeah. I really love that. I was talking to clients today about, saying yeses and nos. Right. So because I know my values and I just operate from them, like you said, it's very easy for me to be. Yes, a yes or a no to something. I don't really need to think about it. But before, you know, a past version of me really needed to take space, take time to sit back and go, do I want to say yes to this?

00:40:54:07 - 00:41:13:28
Lisa
Why am I saying yes to this? Is this align for me? Does this feel congruent? And, you know, so a lot of my clients get a 24 hour rule before they get to say yes or no, so that they can really sit with and tune into, does this feel like the right thing for me? And I think it's little steps like that that will create more and more congruence in people's lives.

00:41:14:00 - 00:41:41:10
Lisa
So, so at this stage you are at in your life, you and I are in our awesome years. We're we're in our awesome years. I would go back to my 20s for all the money in the world. How do you know when something is enough? Because you, like me, often like these behaviors in us. We're coming from kind of a place of lower self-worth, not saying, you know, thinking that we had to do more to be more, to be worthy, to be deserving.

00:41:41:12 - 00:41:47:09
Lisa
So nowadays, how do you know when something is enough?

00:41:47:11 - 00:42:15:18
Ichel
Some other great question. I don't think I've ever, ever really like, sat with that recently because again, it changes, right? Like so even for me, it's not even like going all the way back to my teenage years. Even in the last five years, that shifted. And sometimes it takes somebody else asking that question. I remember when I was going through a meeting with my accountant and we were talking about this and that, and obviously I've got different revenue streams and sometimes ones up, ones down, whatever.

00:42:15:20 - 00:42:36:28
Ichel
And we were talking about something and I just completely out of nowhere. He asked this question like, how much money does one person actually need though? And I was like, what? Because I've never I've never asked myself the question, like, like, what am I aiming for? So it's the same thing. Like, what is enough? How much money is enough?

00:42:36:28 - 00:42:58:17
Ichel
How much success is enough? Like, when do you know you're going to stop? When? When will you get there? You know, I often say it with my clients. Unless you have that data, it's chasing the end of a rainbow because it's always going to change every time you get close to it. It's moving further away from you. So it's a question even though you're asking it now.

00:42:58:17 - 00:43:20:24
Ichel
I feel like like I, I'm still pondering it. It's at this, the current season I am in. That's one that I'm like rearranging stuff to even ask myself that. And, you know, like, what is success now versus what it was when I was 20? What is enough now versus when I was 20? You know? And is it enough?

00:43:20:27 - 00:43:48:00
Ichel
Are we talking like financially, materially? Are we talking energetically, self-worth like growth wise. Because for certain things I feel like there's almost never enough, because for me, on the spiritual path, on the personal development path, like there's never enough as long as I'm alive, that's going to continue to grow, and that becomes more important than the growing of assets and things like that.

00:43:48:02 - 00:44:11:22
Lisa
Yeah, it is a really interesting question, and it's one that I've sat with myself, you know, because life has life me so hard. And it's you know, I think for me, when I think about how do I know when something is enough, it's can I be peaceful if nothing changed? That's really the lens that I'm viewing it through right now is if nothing change, can I be peaceful and content and fulfilled with what is here today?

00:44:11:22 - 00:44:29:12
Lisa
And I can honestly say yes, but that doesn't mean that I don't have big goals and big dreams and, you know, wanting more to write like it's just it's I met this really interesting phase in my life, and I think it's because I felt like so much everything kind of was stripped away for me except for my health and my kids.

00:44:29:12 - 00:44:49:27
Lisa
I mean, there were a lot of things that weren't. I'm being overly dramatic here, but when we go through big life events, it really does cause you to sit back and reflect on what really is important. And, you know, for so much of my life, I have been in this proving energy and, that proving energy never lets me feel like I'm enough.

00:44:49:27 - 00:45:08:20
Lisa
So stepping back and just going, if nothing changed today, could I be fulfilled and satisfied with my life? Would I feel successful? And the answer would be yes. And just, you know, for you as well. I bet if I asked you what are the things you're no longer willing to sacrifice? You're clear on those.

00:45:08:22 - 00:45:38:12
Ichel
Oh, yeah, I hundred percent right. You know, like it's taken. I'd say it's taken the last ten, 15 years to get clear on that because, again, in growth in business, family and things through my 20s and 30s, that wasn't clear. And that that caused I think when you're not clear on those things, it causes. So much like internal turmoil because you're getting pulled in all different directions.

00:45:38:14 - 00:46:01:07
Ichel
That's one thing I love about like the age, the season that I'm in now, as I'm so much more clear about who I am, what I stand for, what my values, what my nose, what my essence are so, so much of that internal dialog, that internal turmoil that exhausts you without you even realizing that because it's just there with you constantly.

00:46:01:09 - 00:46:09:02
Ichel
There's so much less noise inside, there's so much more internal peace. And like, that is priceless.

00:46:09:05 - 00:46:33:17
Lisa
Yeah, that's really what it's all about. You know, I think so many people are are reaching for that, that, that place of peace and fulfillment. But they can't. You'll never find it if you're constantly in the chase of looking for it. Yeah. So for the woman who is listening who carries a lot of responsibility. Right. This is, this is who we are, this is who different versions of us in the past carried more responsibility.

00:46:33:17 - 00:46:46:01
Lisa
I know I've put a lot of stuff down as have you. What do you think is one place she could reclaim alignment without absolutely blowing up her life?

00:46:46:03 - 00:46:53:28
Ichel
I think, oh, let me think one place, because I could probably give you about 20.

00:46:54:01 - 00:47:20:19
Ichel
Yeah. For me, it would be really discerning between, like, is this my responsibility or not? Because we tend to make so because we have big hearts. Because. Right. Yes. It's partly control freak. There's that energy coming in. There's perfectionism. All the other stuff coming in. But mostly it's coming from a good place, right? It's coming from this place of service.

00:47:20:21 - 00:47:52:08
Ichel
It's coming from this place of like, I want to help. I want to be a service to people. But when you start looking at when that impacts you, when that costs you more than you're giving, if that makes sense, that's when you need to start going. Hang on, this isn't my responsibility. For me, it started getting very clear when I was trying to to use my shaman's phrase, when I was trying to eat for other people.

00:47:52:10 - 00:48:09:05
Ichel
And I was like, I know what you need, I can fix you just do these things. And they just wouldn't do the things. And then I'd got incredibly frustrated because I could see that their life would be so much better if they would just implement ABC into their life, but they didn't want to because that wasn't their path.

00:48:09:07 - 00:48:35:26
Ichel
So then I would lose so much of my energy and time because I was trying to force something in someone else's life, as in not my responsibility. And it's really hard when it's somebody that you love that you want the best for. But your responsibility is to yourself and your own energy. And you can, as I always say, you can hold the door open for somebody, but they have to walk through.

00:48:35:29 - 00:49:02:18
Ichel
So I think for me that's huge because that goes that goes to our clients, that goes to our children, that, you know, and it's hard because you like pack and fix the thing. And it's like, but you don't need to fix the thing. The thing is not your responsibility to fix. So learning to discern more. So it's not necessarily about one thing, it's that discernment between is, was this even mine in the first place?

00:49:02:21 - 00:49:08:24
Ichel
And then going, whoopsie, I picked something up again that wasn't mine, gently placing it back down and backing out the room.

00:49:08:27 - 00:49:33:25
Lisa
You know, and and in all fairness, a lot of women were taught the things that weren't their responsibility needed to be their responsibility. This has been passed down from generation to generation. So it is really challenging and disruptive when you when you stop putting your hands on things that aren't yours. But you're correct, it is a I mean, that's a massive way you can step into personal responsibility without blowing up your life.

00:49:33:28 - 00:49:55:23
Lisa
It's it's not hard because without doing that, eventually what's happening. And I think we're seeing this with a lot of women and now we're blaming perimenopause and and menopause on why women are, you know, losing their shit. But really it's it's all the behaviors that were there all along. And now they're coming to the surface because we don't have the emotional resiliency because of unstable hormones.

00:49:55:23 - 00:50:14:15
Lisa
So we're just like, everybody's losing their mind. Which is why I talk about this work like those phases of life don't have to be so hard, but actually being responsible for how you're showing up in your world, and why you're feeling the way you're feeling is so important. So I'm going to ask this closing question for you.

00:50:14:17 - 00:50:22:04
Lisa
What truth are you living now about success that you wish you had trusted sooner?

00:50:22:06 - 00:50:44:21
Ichel
That my version doesn't look like anybody else's? You know, I think I was living this this version, the basically living somebody else's life because it was the version that I thought I should have, or the version that I thought other people would be proud of me if I lived that, or if I just lived this version, everything would be okay.

00:50:44:21 - 00:51:12:17
Ichel
Or if I just lived this version, then I'd be okay. Other people would think I was okay, you know, like I'd be more accepted or like all of those kind of things. But all that led to was misery because it was it's living someone else's life. It's not living my own life. So knowing now that I get to define what success looks like and not only that, that I can change it.

00:51:12:19 - 00:51:39:05
Ichel
So how I define success now doesn't have to look that way. In five years. Like that is so liberating to me, because I used to think anything that you chose, like any path you walk, that's it. That's it for life. So if you decide at 20 years old, this is what success looks like. If I deviate from that plan, I failed because I set that goal out and it's like, no, that part of the plan is to deviate.

00:51:39:06 - 00:51:58:26
Ichel
It is to change. Because as you gather the data, as you gather experiences, you gather life wisdom, all the things that it throws at you, all going to deviate off that path. And that's the beauty of it. And then being able to go, but this is what success is for me. And someone else going shot horror. That's awful.

00:51:58:26 - 00:52:09:25
Ichel
How could you how could you define that a success? And sitting there and smiling and being really content that it is success for me and not having to explain it to anyone else?

00:52:09:27 - 00:52:33:08
Lisa
Yeah, it's so interesting success, because it's like we don't really have it any way to measure it. It's like perfect, right? There's no real way to measure it. It really is up to each person's interpretation. But we're so often creating it based on other people's realities. And somebody else's version of success is like my worst nightmare, right? Like when I work, look at some of these Hollywood actors.

00:52:33:08 - 00:52:54:15
Lisa
I'm like, that is my worst nightmare. That was not my idea of success. And I always come back to really believing that success isn't about where you get to or the accomplishments. It's a choice. It's a feeling. Right? What is it? What does it mean for you to feel successful? It has really nothing to do with any external circumstances.

00:52:54:17 - 00:53:24:07
Lisa
I mean, there's a dude lying on the beach selling seashells that's feeling successful today. And who's to say that his definition of success, who's to say he is? And on to something. So I really love I really love that you said that. And I think that's a really amazing way to close this out. So tell me and tell the listeners where can they go to find you if they want to learn more about seasonal cycles and lunar cycles, what's the best place to follow you and creep on all your stuff?

00:53:24:09 - 00:53:41:00
Ichel
Come prep me now! Firstly, I just want to say huge thank you for this conversation. I know me and you speak on very similar things, but like in different kind of energies, but it's always wonderful to have conversations with you. So thank you so much for inviting me.

00:53:41:04 - 00:53:54:23
Lisa
It's a pleasure to have you on. Are you kidding me? I got to spend like, I don't know how long we've been talking for, but to spend this time with you and to just be able to ask you questions and sit and be a listener to your wisdom. Because I always appreciate everything that comes out of your mouth.

00:53:54:23 - 00:54:16:26
Lisa
So you've just become a really, dear friend and a trusted ally in that crazy, insane world out there. And, you know, there have been there have been many a time I chill where something you have said has really helped to shift a perspective that I was carrying. So it was my pleasure to have you on and really showcase you for all my listeners to hear.

00:54:16:29 - 00:54:34:29
Ichel
And I appreciate you for even saying, like, where can people connect with me as well? So, you can connect with me on Instagram. I'm an actual friend, sister. My website, actual francis.com, and I also have a podcast, the Aligned Alchemy Podcast, so you can connect with me on there too.

00:54:35:02 - 00:54:44:14
Lisa
Thanks for being here and I hope everybody listening enjoyed the conversation. Make sure you go check out Ichel’s work and I will catch you on the next episode.

00:54:44:17 - 00:55:09:07
Lisa
If you recognized yourself in Ichel’s story, you're not alone. So many ambitious, capable men and women are drowning in responsibility they think is theirs, exhausting themselves, trying to fix everyone, and quietly wondering when they'll finally get to rest. The truth is, you're not going to rest by doing more. You're not going to feel successful by accomplishing more, and you're not going to feel worthy by working harder to prove your value.

00:55:09:10 - 00:55:33:06
Lisa
You'll feel it when you finally stop caring what isn't yours. When you discern between what's actually your responsibility and what you've taken on because you think being helpful means saving everyone. And when you stop trying to eat for other people and let them feed themselves, the congruency audit is where we look at the gap between the success you've built on the outside and what you're actually feeling on the inside.

00:55:33:08 - 00:55:53:20
Lisa
We'll identify the exact patterns keeping you stuck and over functioning, the wounds driving your need to fix and control everything, and what it's going to take for you to finally create success that feels as good on the inside as it looks on the outside. This isn't about doing more. It's about putting down what was never yours to carry in the first place.

00:55:53:22 - 00:55:59:20
Lisa
You can book your free concurrency audit at LisaCarpenter.ca/Audit.